D&D 5E (2014) Help me change how the identify spell works

[Benjamin Olson]

Well I've never allowed identification through short rest, unless they are attuning to the (possibly cursed) item. Even then I might make them roll. I've also never had players expecting to identify through rest. I suppose I might allow it in a campaign where nobody had reasonable access to identify, and there were no NPCs to help (why I'm running a campaign where the latter is true, I don't know). Probably makes sense in some one shots.

I'm not sure what is really gained by not letting the Identify spell work roughly rules as written though. People still have to learn or prepare the spell. At some point making them jump through extra hoops just adds extra book-keeping. As DM I've got enough on my plate without needing to remember that Grognar's new +2 greataxe also does radiant damage to the the undead but his player doesn't know this yet. By all means if it's some mighty and plot critical artifact and letting them identify it fully on the spot is going to reveal campaign secrets saying "there are aspects of this thing beyond the power of this spell to know" seems fair, but generally identification is not so compelling of an aspect of gameplay that I want to drag it out more.

And usually I just allow players to identify with an Arcana roll, though it has to be real good to fully identify a complicated and non-obvious item (figuring out a +1 weapon or a bag of holding shouldn't be hard), or else it has to fit the character's background to know what it is or something.

 

[Lanefan]

Its brutal in 1e. I had a wizard who would pass out if he cast it because of the CON lose. Gooood Times!

The way I have it, if your Con is 8 or less don't even bother acquiring Identify for your spellbook as it'll kill you dead the first time you cast it.

 

[Lanefan]

I don’t find making magic items hard to identify makes the game more fun, unless it is a unique and powerful item, in which case I’m gonna build story around it. But wasting game time and story to determine that this is a +1 shield and that is a wand of magic missiles is not for me. It’s not an actual challenge or puzzle, it’s just time consuming.

Except, is it really just a +1 shield? Or is it a +0 with some other ability such as giving fire resistance to the wearer? Or it is something else completely - a scrying device, a food-producer, a means of carrying goods - that just happens to look like a shield?

Every item has the potential to be unique, and IMO it should take field testing and-or Identify to determine whether it really is something unusual or in fact just a basic +1 shield.

 

[Maxperson]

The way I have it, if your Con is 8 or less don't even bother acquiring Identify for your spellbook as it'll kill you dead the first time you cast it.

Someone with zero immune system probably has a 3 or 4 con. If your con is dropping to 3, 2 or 1, in an unclean fantasy world, you're probably going to wake up dying from something or even several different somethings. It really shouldn't be cast by someone with less than a 14 or 15 con if you're going to use the 8 con loss rule.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I certainly agree about a short rest suddenly revealing everything about an item. It bugs me too. Identify never a problem mainly because of the short rest element no player of mine (in either current campaign) has ever bothered with it.

Out of curiosity though, what is your personal issue with the Identify spell? Just too easy or something else?

Here are a few quick considerations that others have brought up that I don't really count as mattering (and my reasons), and then I'll get to your question:

• Having it take more time. The assumption I have is that you get an item, and then you either get it identified over about the timeframe of a short rest, a long rest, or more extended downtime where you have to go to a library or an NPC. Practically speaking, that's all that matters. Short to long I don't see as a meaningful difference on play, and I wouldn't want everything to require extended downtime. When it comes to characters using magic and skill checks to identify something themselves, the duration of about a short rest is sufficiently long.
• Having to know the identify spell as some sort of meaningful obstacle. It didn't make sense to me when the DMG acted like that mattered, and it doesn't now. Sure, bards and wizards are the only base class that gets it. If you are a wizard you should just know it as one of your starting spells, and cast it as a ritual. If your party only has a bard, then you should carry a few scrolls with it. I know that not everyone is of a vintage where a wizard in the party was basically assumed, with all the other options we now have, but I just don't consider access to this spell to be an obstacle. Any party that can't cast it themselves should plan to get someone to cast it for them as soon as they get to civilization.
• Having to make a skill check. I do allow skill checks, and a good enough roll might allow you to ascertain exactly what even a rare and complex item is (although you won't know if you are right until you use magic or see other proof). But I consider that just a normal, assumed, part of the world. It's a given that you might happen to know what something is, or you might take time go ask someone or research in a library. There should still be a mystical solution that is more reliable but requires more than a d20 roll.
• I'm not sure I consider having to cast the spell multiple times to be that impactful. There is a certain simplicity to it if the spell also also requires 100 gp each time, but it feels like it might just be more annoying than helpful, and some items just might not be worth the effort.

I didn't have a problem with identify in 3e, because it consumed 100 gp and there were a lot of magic items with the assumed magic item treadmill. It wasn't perfect, but it didn't set off my dissatisfaction senses.

Now we come to 5e. 5e walks back some of 3e's magic item economy to revive a bit more of a style when magic items were special and mysterious. Part of it is that it's too easy. But it's not purely about how easy it is, it's about how it is easy.

It is easy because there is no meaningful consideration involved. You simply do it, and know everything. Might as well just make it automatic (which is what they basically did with the short rest free identification). It is also easy because there is no consideration of your party's level. Identify is a spell you can (and should) just start the game with. It is also easy because there is no difference made between a +1 weapon and a magic weapon with 3 different features, one of them custom designed. (At least, by the rules, there is no way to identify a curse. You just have to stumble into it unless legend lore or something gives you a clue. I might now have made it that difficult to detect curses, but since it's RAW, I'll likely stick with it.)

On the other hand, I don't want it to be too hard either. If it were, why do all the NPCs seem to have full command of their magic items? Shouldn't they also be walking around with stuff that they don't know what it does? Setting consistency is a huge thing for me. The goal is that the more complicated or non-standard the item is, and the lower the level the characters, the more difficult it would be for them to use magic to figure out what they have.

By the way, there have been some cool suggestions so far. Keep them coming!

 

[Pamphylian]

My approach has been similar to the Remove Curse spell: there are mundane curses and magic items that the spells work perfectly on (common magic items, curses from Bestow Curse), and there is a higher tier of item/curse (artifacts, unique items, most potions) that it provides imperfect information for. It would be convenient if there was a strict mechanical delineation (capital A Artifacts vs. not), but in practice it is mostly things that I think it would be interesting to force the party to experiment with - not necessarily Artifact level power. I think this is a part of the game with which I am not willing to part: tentatively attuning, devising experiments, seeking out a sage or sphinx, tasting and smelling potions to get clues. There are a good number of items for which this is not particularly interesting and I can skip the noodling around, but just like there are curses out there that there is no way a third level spell could counter, it is not crazy to have magic items for which it is similar.

 

[Lanefan]

Someone with zero immune system probably has a 3 or 4 con. If your con is dropping to 3, 2 or 1, in an unclean fantasy world, you're probably going to wake up dying from something or even several different somethings. It really shouldn't be cast by someone with less than a 14 or 15 con if you're going to use the 8 con loss rule.

Even if you're average Con (10 or 11) losing 8 puts you at 2 or 3 - which means if you cast it just before sacking out for the night you'll just get an unusually solid night's sleep then be back to normal in the morning.

Can't remember whether it's a house rule or RAW but in our games the Con comes back at 1 point per hour.

 

[Lanefan]

On the other hand, I don't want it to be too hard either. If it were, why do all the NPCs seem to have full command of their magic items? Shouldn't they also be walking around with stuff that they don't know what it does? Setting consistency is a huge thing for me. The goal is that the more complicated or non-standard the item is, and the lower the level the characters, the more difficult it would be for them to use magic to figure out what they have.

I've had parties find (or, at least, potentially be able to find) some cool magic items stowed away in cupboards or chests, put there simply because their owners couldn't figure out what they did and-or how to operate them.

Odds are high, though, that if an NPC is carrying/wearing an item when met then said NPC knows how to use it - otherwise, why have it with you all the time?

 

[Maxperson]

Even if you're average Con (10 or 11) losing 8 puts you at 2 or 3 - which means if you cast it just before sacking out for the night you'll just get an unusually solid night's sleep then be back to normal in the morning.

Can't remember whether it's a house rule or RAW but in our games the Con comes back at 1 point per hour.

Nah. Sick germs would be all over the party, the places they sleep, cities, dungeons, the outdoors, already in their bodies being fought off successfully, etc. Even going right to sleep would often mean bad news.

Fantasy worlds are not clean places. Hell, even in the modern world where we know what to do, infections/sickness hit hospital patients often. And they have higher cons in cleaner places.

And it's not a house rule. You get con back at a rate of 1 per 6 turns unless you go unconscious. If you go below 3, full con is restored 24 hours later.

 

[Silam]

All good points! But this part towards the end made me chuckle …

On the other hand, I don't want it to be too hard either. If it were, why do all the NPCs seem to have full command of their magic items?

5e sidesteps this issue somewhat elegantly… NPCs simply don’t have any magic items …

Or, at any rate, they have nowhere close to the amount PCs carry. And of course they don’t, otherwise everytime a PC killed an NPC they would double their loot, which obviously makes no sense.

Or… maybe the explanation is that NPCs find just as many magic items as PCs do, but they either don’t pick them up at all (don’t know detect magic) or don’t figure out how to use them (don’t know identify) or else they are simply afraid they might be cursed so not worth the risk (fairly sensible, to be honest).

That being said, I do share your sensibility to making the world consistent for both PCs and NPCs… but it’s very difficult, unfortunately