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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 3064990" data-attributes="member: 23619">It is +1, for weapons. In this example, yes, the armor is cheaper, but only by a tiny 1,180gp. This would give your armor guy an AC of 26 (assuming a Dex of at least 12/+1); 10 (base), +8 (armor), +2 (shield), +3 enhancement, +2 enhancement, +1 Dex. He would also have a touch AC of 16 and flat footed AC of 25. And his movement would be reduced to 20, with a -6 armor check penalty and run at X3. Bracer guy would have an AC of 18; 10 (base), +8 (bracers). Now, at this point, Bracer guy gets to add his Dex (+1 to +5, depending on level and race, not counting any other magic items or spells). We'll go with +5 for Dex. So, total AC of 23 (18+5); Touch AC of 15, Flat footed AC of 18. Movement is not reduced, nor is Run, and there is no armor check penalty. Touch AC is comparable for either, and flat footed AC is not an issue if we are dealing with someone with Uncanny Dodge, even still, an 18 is not entirely bad. However, the rest is dependent upon situation. If bracer guy were a Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer or Wizard, they are definitely going to have more advantages to back up the difference in AC. The Plate guy is only a benefit to Clerics, Fighters, and Paladins, and definitely not in situations where stealth or mobility are important, where they could be a liability to their party. Extreme as stated, that was my point. And I think it proved my point quite well. The fact that a cleric can nearly do the same thing is irrelevant. If I had used a cleric in my example of Bracer Guy, you would just have replied that a Wizard could do the same thing (or a Sorcerer, etc., etc.). As for what a wizard can or cannot cast, if they are high enough level to create the items I used in my example, they are high enough level to create their own spells to duplicate the effects of the ones they cannot cast, thereby allowing them to make those items. Do you honestly think a Wizard that powerful is going to shy away from making those items? No. They're going to either get the nearest cleric to assist or their going to figure out a way to do it themselves. How so? If the character has the Craft Wondrous Items feat, he can make a Wondrous Item. There is nothing in the RAW (PHB or SRD) stating that the character is limited to making what is in the DMG. In fact, the DMG 3.5 provides the table (pg 285) for expenses involved in crafting any manner of Wondrous Item. A cloak with a Shield spell takes up the Cloak slot. It is a Spell Effect item that would fall under Use Activated or Continuous. The Base Price is Spell Level X Caster Level X 2,000gp. For the Shield spell, that would be 1 (spell level) X 1 (using only a caster level of 1 by choice) X 2,000gp, for a subtotal of 2,000gp. Since the duration of Shield is in minutes, this total is multiplied by 2, for a total Base Price of 4,000gp. Since it is being made by the same wizard, it only costs 2,000gp to craft it. DM's are always free to say "no, you can't", but this is not an abuse of the rules (#1 reason for DM's to say "no, you can't"), in fact, it is something made specifically within the guidelines provided. Before I go any further, if you're going to use my example, you use my example in its entirety, not picking and choosing aspects of it to make your argument appear better. Also, for sake of simplicity, I will regard both Armor Guy and Bracer Guy as having access to all items necessary to make their magic and we can stick with your stats of Dex being 10 for Armor Guy and 16 for Bracer Guy. Your Armor Guy would have an AC of 40--base 10, full plate 8, enhancement 2, hvy steel shield 2, enhancement 5, amulet 5, ring 5, Dex 3. Touch AC of 25--base 10, armor enhancement 2, shield enhancement 5, ring 5, Dex 3. Full Plate, shield and amulet do not count since Touch attacks ignore armor. AC vs Incorporeal of 33--base 10, armor 8, arm enhancement 2, sh enhancement 5, ring 5, Dex 3. Again, ignoring the shield and natural armor.Flat footed AC of 37--all but Dex.Bracer Guy would have all items that I listed in my example (including Wis 14/+2, Periapt, and 1 level of Monk). Total and variant ACs would be the same listed; Base AC 45, vs Touch/Incorporeal 40, and Flat Footed AC of 37.  Bracer Guy would be out 119,000gp vs. Armor Guy being out 103,820gp. A difference of 15,180gp. Hooray for Armor Guy who still moves at 20', has his Run limited to X4, still carries a -4 armor check penalty (-8 to Swim). His AC is anywhere from 5 to 20 points worse depending on the situation, except for sharing a flat footed AC and Bracer Guy still has all the benefits I listed in my example. Armor Guy is only marginally better off with Mithril plate, but not enough to make a noticeable difference. Also, his armor marks him as a big (and slow) target, and an immediate threat. Not so for Bracer Guy who can dress as he pleases and still look relatively mundane and nonthreatening. Also, casting Magic Vestment only improves his overall AC by 3 (+5 enhancement supercedes +2) and is a temporary benefit that still doesn't put him entirely on par with Bracer Guy. What godlike ability scores? A 20 Dex (16 from your elf elite array, +4 for level bonuses, there you go, or Bracer Guy could have been gifted with a lucky 18 roll, or put the point buy into it to get an 18, then +2 elf bonus) is hardly god-like. Being lawful is not a sacrifice, uncommon perhaps for an elf, but no different than any other alignment in benefit or drawback. Also, multiclassing is hardly a sacrifice. A Wiz19/Mnk1 is a decent combination and not a sacrifice at all. True, he does not get +1 BAB, +1 Will, +1 metamagic, and +1 9th lvl spell. But he does get more hit points (D8 vs D4), +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +2 Will, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Unarmed damage of 1D6, 2 extra skill points (even more if Monk is taken as the character's 1st character level) and a wider selection of skills, proficiency with extra martial and exotic weapons, an overall AC bonus equal to Wisdom, (and an additional AC bonus if Monk items are acquired that boost effective monk level), and either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist. These are all constant abilities that the character will get more use out of than 1 extra 9th level spell.   Even without the level of Monk, that just means that Bracer Guy saved money not spent on the Periapt and his AC is on par (and still better in some areas) with Armor Guy. Bracer Guy is still even more dangerous than Armor Guy (cleric is either casting spells or wading in enemies in melee--if he's out of the way casting, his armor is useless; if he is in melee, he's not casting without taking significant risk of spell disruption--while Bracer Guy is out of the way turning his enemies into dust (or any of the myriad options available) before they even get close or laughing when they miss him if they do get close enough to attack. What is wrong about the Monk part? RAW state, "When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus to AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th lvl...." Where is the error you are referring to? One level of monk grants the Wisdom bonus to AC. And a Monk Belt treats that level 1 monk as a level 5 monk for the AC bonus mentioned. It's really pretty simple and clear.</blockquote>

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