D&D 5E (2024) Hexblade isn't coming, yet.

[CreamCloud0]

I get it too. The thing is, not having hard-coded rules doesn't really prevent anyone to play it "hard", whereas having hard-coded rules will prevent anyone playing it "loosely". Hence, more people will be able to play it as they wish if it is not hard-coded.

Yeah, I mean, I’m someone who’d fall more on the loose side for playing a class narrative, but there are other parts of the game where I absolutely want hard coded rules and abilities and feel that going no-rules loosey goosey ruins the feel of playing the thing as it’s meant to represent for me.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

I get it too. The thing is, not having hard-coded rules doesn't really prevent anyone to play it "hard", whereas having hard-coded rules will prevent anyone playing it "loosely". Hence, more people will be able to play it as they wish if it is not hard-coded.

I argue the rules are now hard-coded to make "playing it hard" impossible RAW and force loosely as the only option.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

You are the one throwing strawmen around with all that “city watch” nonsense.

If a player wants to roleplay having an NPC boss then around they can have family, or a liege lord, or an office manager, or whatever, and none of that is in any way tied to class mechanics. And if they don’t want to do that, then they don’t have to.

So in other words, every step made to stop players from being murderhobos and to actually get invested in the world their character inhabits is wrong and bad. Again, this isn't d&d, this is Skyrim.

 

[BenjaminPey]

Yeah, I mean, I’m someone who’d fall more on the loose side for playing a class narrative, but there are other parts of the game where I absolutely feel that going no-rules loosey goosey ruins the feel of playing the thing as it’s meant to represent for me.

Yes, it's a battle between the players who can but won't and the ones who want but can't. I usually side with the latter in these cases. The others can, they just won't.

I argue the rules are now hard-coded to make "playing it hard" impossible RAW and force loosely as the only option.

You can argue, but you would be wrong. I did it in my last campaign, with a warlock whose patron was very active from the beginning at level one, although still not fully determined.

Their identity became clearer at level 3, as expected. It was a blast.

And there are thousands of other way to deal with that, like choosing the kind of patron you want from the get go. Nothing in the rules prevent it, you can choose your sublcass at any time. In fact, many players do, not especially warlocks. This choice won't have any mechanical effect before level 3, but all the juicy RP you like so much will be there, promise.

 

[Remathilis]

I find it absolutely laughable I am getting this kind of reaction to the idea of Warlock coming in with a built-in NPC for Dm to use and that this NPC should be roleplayed like any other - as a person with their own wants, needs and goals, that may want the player to do things for them and may react to player's actions. [Snip tangent]

I have no problem with that kind of relationship. I hate it when it's forced on me. When the DM says, "oh you're a fiend warlock? Meet astaroth your patron. He's got a quest for you and you are going to want to stay in his good graces...."

I've seen warlocks who struck a deal with the Dark Powers of Ravenloft. I've seen warlocks who rebelled a seek to kill their patron. I've seen one guy who wanted a patron but didn't like the warlock class and asked to have a patron awaken his shadow sorcery instead. I don't want just one type of relationship with a patron. I want to be able to have a cordial, antagonistic, or none at all.

 

[Remathilis]

So in other words, every step made to stop players from being murderhobos and to actually get invested in the world their character inhabits is wrong and bad. Again, this isn't d&d, this is Skyrim.

Are we really advocating for "spare the rod, spoil the child" as a means of player interaction?

 

[Remathilis]

And there are thousands of other way to deal with that, like choosing the kind of patron you want from the get go. Nothing in the rules prevent it, you can choose your sublcass at any time. In fact, many players do, not especially warlocks. This choice won't have any mechanical effect before level 3, but all the juicy RP you like so much will be there, promise.

Most of my players do. Many build towards it. And some want to explore as they get there. The issue is when the DM forces the issue.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I argue the rules are now hard-coded to make "playing it hard" impossible RAW

It's supposed to be impossible RAW, because if it was RAW it would give the DM the power to impose their style of play irrespective of if the player wanted it or not. But the player is free to make their patron as much as an evil lawyer* as they want. It just can't be imposed on them anginst their will, just as a fighter can't be stripped of their class abilities for failing to obey their evil king.


*That's another thing, there seems to be an idea that all warlock patrons must be evil lawyers, even when it makes no sense. The vast majority of patrons are not devils and don't care about exact wording of contracts. A warlock patron might be a wise mentor, or a shamanic spirit-guide, or a fairy lover, or a collection of spirits with different personalities, or an ally with a shared agenda, or bound to serve the warlock in some way (Arial/Prospero), or have no power to act apart from by granting power to another, or distant on uncaring (but their power can still warp the warlock's body and mind) or just a demon who is happy to empower a murder-hobo. Or maybe the celestial is a legalistic bstd after all.

Trying to put rules on this throws much of this creativity out the window, and turns out cookie cutter identical warlocks.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So in other words, every step made to stop players from being murderhobos

If the players want to play murder hobos, then you have no right to stop them. They are there to enjoy themselves, not be your puppets. If you don't like playing a game with players who like murderhoboing, play with different players.

But what is stopping murdhoboing to do with warlock patrons? Many patrons are quite keen to encourage that sort of thing.

 

[Remathilis]

If the players want to play murder hobos, then you have no right to stop them. They are there to enjoy themselves, not be your puppets. If you don't like playing a game with players who like murderhoboing, play with different players.

But what is stopping murdhoboing to do with warlock patrons? Many patrons are quite keen to encourage that sort of thing.

I mean, the fighter can kill everyone they meet, the rogue can steal from every business in Waterdeep and the wizard can use fireball as his favorite negotiation tactic, but the warlock having to answer to Big Daddy will keep him in check!