Hide and Seek Question

[Water Bob]

OK, here's another question for the more experienced d20 GM's.

It's 90' to the mouth of a cave. The PC's have spotted a human sentry with a dog at the opening. The PC's want to two characters to sneak around the right perimeter to stealthly approach the guard.

The sneaking PC's speed is 30 for both characters. So, that's 3 Hide checks, one per 30 foot, vs. the sentry's and the dog's Spot roll. It's very windy, so I'm eliminating the chance that the dog will pick up a scent early, and the wind is so loud (rushing through the caves makes a loud, whistling sound), that I've eliminated the guard hearing the two PC's approach early.

We're just dealing with the Hide and Spot checks.

The Spot check is at a -1 penalty per 10' of distance, right?

So, on the first Hide check the PC's make, scooting from boulder to tree for concealment, does the Spot check come with a -9 (for 90'), -8 (for 80') or -7 (for 70') penalty?

In other words, with the sneaking PC's moving 30' in a round, the Spot check penalty can vary for as much as 3 points.

Which modifier do you use?

How do you handle this in your game?

 

[Greenfield]

When we play, I use minis and a battle mat. I also use scenery, A bag of lichen from the hobby store makes for good brush and cover. I generally grab a handful and just toss it on the board. Wherever it falls, that's where it fall.

If the scene is one that lends itself to the use of minis and scenery, like the one Water Bob described, then I ask the players to move their figures, so I can determine when and where they might have to break cover.

Those are the points when I have them make that check.

Lacking the props, I'd probably have them make the check at the mid-point of their move.

Remember that unless the guard is fresh on duty, or otherwise on high alert, he'll probably suffer the -5 penalty for being Distracted. (as per the SRD).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I just use one hide and spot check at all. The gradual removal of spot penalties for each 10 ft closer resolves how close the PCs could get before the guard notices them.

 

[Water Bob]

If the scene is one that lends itself to the use of minis and scenery, like the one Water Bob described, then I ask the players to move their figures, so I can determine when and where they might have to break cover.

I use these big sheets of graph paper. I draw on it using a magic marker. It's tacked onto this large, table-sized cork board. I use push-pins as character markers instead of minis.

So...if the first sneaking PC breaks cover, moves 10' to a boulder for cover, then moves another 10' behind a tree, and finally uses his last 10' of movement to skoot from the tree to a pile of rocks, which modifier would you use?

Breaking cover to the rock is a -9 modifier.

From behind the rock to the tree is a -8 modifier.

From behind the tree to the pile of rocks is a -7 modifier.

The PC breaks cover three times, moving from original position to rock, then from the rock to the tree, then from the tree to the pile of rocks.

How do you determine which of the three times the PC is out from cover that the guard will throw and possibly spot him?

Remember that unless the guard is fresh on duty, or otherwise on high alert, he'll probably suffer the -5 penalty for being Distracted. (as per the SRD).

That's a good tip, thanks.

 

[Greenfield]

Oddly, the rules allow you to break cover while hiding, so long as you start and end your move behind cover.

If you have 100% concealment, no roll is needed it all. It's the fact that you probably need to break cover that lets the guard have a chance to see you at all. So I wouldn't penalize them for breaking cover. (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but on the face of it that's what it looks like you were describing.

If a given move starts and ends in cover, but breaks cover en route, then make the penalty on the Spot based on the mid-point distance for the move.

I'm going to make a suggestion for you, in terms of figures: Get an old chess set. Knights and Bishops are obvious parallels, and bad guy minions are always black pawns.

If you want a "battle mat" you can draw on with a wet-wipe marker, and you're on a budget, look for a checkered picnic style table cloth. Plastic coated or pure plastic, they come pre-marked in 1 inch squares, they're cheap, and you can wipe off the Vis-a-Vis type markers with a damp cloth.

Other neat props: Lichen can be bought by the bad at most hobby or model shops, and your local game shop may have it as well.

The aquarium and terrarium departments at your local pet store may well have "ancient Greek ruins" type pieces, like simple column sets, semi-ruined. Again, cheap. Resin cast skulls of fanged predators are also available. Not that much use in a game, but some people like that sort of thing anyway.

A cheap set of dominoes can be used to lay out simple structures or trace walls.

A caution on props, though: Full model buildings are available, and WOTC produced a set of cut-and-fold structures you could download for free from their website, but if you have something that stands taller than whatever you're using to mark the character positions then the players may have a hard time seeing past them.

<edit>Follow the link to see some examples I found at PetCo. http://www.petco.com/Shop/ProductCo...sh-Decor.aspx?pc=productlist&N=24+105+30&cp=4 </edit>

 

[Water Bob]

It's the fact that you probably need to break cover that lets the guard have a chance to see you at all.

Exactly. The example I gave above has the sneaking PC moving from starting point of cover, out in the open, to behind a boulder. That gives the guard a -9 penalty on that 10' piece of movement.

Then, since the PC can move 30' total, he keeps moving. He pops out of cover from behind the boulder and moves 10' out in the open to behind the tree.

That's a -8 penalty for the guard to spot him.

And, on his last 10' stretch, he moves from behind the tree, out in the open again, to behind a pile of rocks. When he's out in the open during this leg of his movement, the guard would have a -7 penalty to spot him.

But, the guard only gets one try to spot him during this combat round although there are a possible three different times the guard could see the PC. I guess you could random roll to see which time the guard looks that way.

And....what if the guard is looking that way for the full 6 seconds? I think the least penalty is probaby the best instead of going with the halfway point.

So I wouldn't penalize them for breaking cover.

If a given move starts and ends in cover, but breaks cover en route, then make the penalty on the Spot based on the mid-point distance for the move.

These two comments seem contradictory.

I'm going to make a suggestion for you, in terms of figures: Get an old chess set. Knights and Bishops are obvious parallels, and bad guy minions are always black pawns.

If you want a "battle mat" you can draw on with a wet-wipe marker, and you're on a budget, look for a checkered picnic style table cloth. Plastic coated or pure plastic, they come pre-marked in 1 inch squares, they're cheap, and you can wipe off the Vis-a-Vis type markers with a damp cloth.

Other neat props: Lichen can be bought by the bad at most hobby or model shops, and your local game shop may have it as well.

The aquarium and terrarium departments at your local pet store may well have "ancient Greek ruins" type pieces, like simple column sets, semi-ruined. Again, cheap. Resin cast skulls of fanged predators are also available. Not that much use in a game, but some people like that sort of thing anyway.

A cheap set of dominoes can be used to lay out simple structures or trace walls.

Thanks, but the graph paper and tacks works great. I've been using it for at least the last 15 years. I don't like dealing with model or mini's. And, I use colored dots, stuck to the top of the tacks, to determine which character is which. I'll number them and put a direction marker so that their facing can be seen, when important.

So, if 8 orcs appear in the distance, I'll just grab 8 of the yellow-topped tacks to represent the orcs.

The graph paper I get are large sheets. The tack fits just inside one of the small squares, so, usually, each square equals 5 feet. But, unlike mini's I can change scale on a dime if I need to, smaller or bigger.

I can have tacks represent more than one character (maybe a unit in a large fight, army vs. army).

It's much more versitile than what you are suggesting. But, thanks for the suggestion anyway.

 

[Greenfield]

Perhaps I should have clarified: The range penalty for the Spot is based on the distance at the midpoint of the move. That's not a rule, it's just a good way to do it.

As for your example, if the stealth artist is moving 30 feet in the round, as you describe, then they suffer a penalty for moving too quickly/far. That one is a rule.

 

[Water Bob]

Perhaps I should have clarified: The range penalty for the Spot is based on the distance at the midpoint of the move. That's not a rule, it's just a good way to do it.

I saw a better way to do it on another forum. Have the single spot check made, but use all three modifiers. That way, the higher the spot check total, the farther away he spotted the character.

Remember, the three possibilities of check were -9, -8, -7. Let's say the roll on the die was an 18, and the Hide throw was 10.

This would mean that the spotter caught the sneaking character at the middle part.

If the Hide total was 15, then the spotter never sees him.

If the Hide total is 7, then the spotter (rolling 18 - 9 = 9) catches him at the earliest opportunity.

If the Hide total is 9, then the spotter catches him at the last opportunity (18 - 7 = 11).

I thought that was a pretty good take on the implemention of the rule and avoids things like figuring out a half way point.

As for your example, if the stealth artist is moving 30 feet in the round, as you describe, then they suffer a penalty for moving too quickly/far. That one is a rule.

Thanks. I realized that after I wrote the example. I took the example from a Level 1-3 Dungeon which doesn't mention the half speed Hide movement restriction,

 

[Water Bob]

As for your example, if the stealth artist is moving 30 feet in the round, as you describe, then they suffer a penalty for moving too quickly/far. That one is a rule.

By the rule, given the character's Speed is 30, then he's at no modifier moving 1-15 feet. He's at a -5 modifier moving 16-29 feet. And, -20 modiifer moving 30+ feet during the round.

So, in my original example, the character moves 30 feet total. He should be at a -20 modifier to his Hide. He'd be much better off taking those moves over three rounds, moving 10 feet each time, for no modifier.

 

[Greenfield]

The Hide v Spot mechanic is one that's quite often an issue.

When walking down the street, everyone is presumed to be "taking 10" on their Spot, simply to see what's going on around them, to avoid bumping into people.

A person who is trying to stealthily slip through a crowd may often be considered to be "taking 10" on their Hide, if they're trying to avoid suspected observers.

Yet, by the rules, you can't Take 10 in contested roll situations.

I've had debates, long ones, on this topic. Player A wants his character to be able to Take 10 on his stealth checks when moving into an area. He knows that his Hide and Move Silent ranks are high enough that no casual observer will ever notice the approach. He wants skill to equal Invisibility.

Part of the argument was game color: The Master Ninja shouldn't be found out by some washer woman who happens to roll hot at the same moment his dice go cold. Get caught by the Imperial Guard? He could handle that, but casual observation by a nobody? They wouldn't have to execute him, he'd die of embarrassment.

But when does the washer woman change from Taking 10 on her Spot, just to see what she's doing, to rolling a dice (at a -5 penalty for being distracted)?

When does the Master Ninja change from Take 10 to rolling a dice?

By 4th Ed rules, you make a check every time the modifier changes, and that calls for a dice roll the moment there's an observer there to contest the dice roll.

It's sort of a Quantum Mechanics thing: Want to know if Shroedinger's Cat is alive in that box? Pass an item in an unverified state (called a "Cat State") into the box and see if it stays unverified. If it doesn't it means there was an observer.

Want to know if there's someone out there trying to sneak up on you? Wait for the call for a dice roll.

Some DM's simply ask player's for their Spot bonus at the beginning of a shift on watch, then roll dice secretly when the need arises. Others call for Spot and Listen checks at the beginning of every shift on watch, and "saves" it for the time if/when it's needed.