My 'add prof to saving throw' thread brought up this question - has anyone played 5e at high level (say 13+) yet? If so, how is the caster/non-caster balance in actual play? I have the impression that bounded accuracy strongly favours casters, that a high level Wizard can wipe out 30 orcs with a couple fireballs whereas 30 orcs would butcher a high level Fighter. Is that right?
D&D 5E High Level 5e - any actual play? How's the balance?
Any actual play at high level? How's the caster/non-caster balance?
My 'add prof to saving throw' thread brought up this question - has anyone played 5e at high level (say 13+) yet? If so, how is the caster/non-caster balance in actual play? I have the impression that bounded accuracy strongly favours casters, that a high level Wizard can wipe out 30 orcs with a couple fireballs whereas 30 orcs would butcher a high level Fighter. Is that right?
My 'add prof to saving throw' thread brought up this question - has anyone played 5e at high level (say 13+) yet? If so, how is the caster/non-caster balance in actual play? I have the impression that bounded accuracy strongly favours casters, that a high level Wizard can wipe out 30 orcs with a couple fireballs whereas 30 orcs would butcher a high level Fighter. Is that right?
High level 5e is more segmented by jobs for balance.
Noncasters and hybrids are best at killing over an adventure, making checks, and doing their one special thing.
Casters can do everything else with the caveat that they can only do them 3-5 times a day as low level spells become useless against high level threats which arent mobs.
Noncasters and hybrids are best at killing over an adventure, making checks, and doing their one special thing.
Casters can do everything else with the caveat that they can only do them 3-5 times a day as low level spells become useless against high level threats which arent mobs.
The orcs will swarm the caster just as well. There will generally only be 1 turn where they are in fireball range but cannot attack. The fireball will wipe out a group, but the orcs can move 90 feet when not attacking and 60 feet when attacking.
There are plenty of things the caster can do to survive. An evoker can blast itself with another fireball. It could put up a wall. It could run and shoot fireballs to delay things a bit. There is always shield, and dimension door can get it to safety. But well over 20 orcs could probably make it to to the wizard, and then bad things happen.
The fighter is more reliable in terms of just dealing damage. It will easily take 1 to 2 orcs down per round, and the orcs will have trouble hitting it and moving through its hp.
My table has only made it to level 11, but I have found that everyone still contributes well to the skills, the combat, and the role play. The thing is, there will always be situations where one class may do better than another, but the group has to work together to survive. It is not a case of each PC fights on its own.
There are plenty of things the caster can do to survive. An evoker can blast itself with another fireball. It could put up a wall. It could run and shoot fireballs to delay things a bit. There is always shield, and dimension door can get it to safety. But well over 20 orcs could probably make it to to the wizard, and then bad things happen.
The fighter is more reliable in terms of just dealing damage. It will easily take 1 to 2 orcs down per round, and the orcs will have trouble hitting it and moving through its hp.
My table has only made it to level 11, but I have found that everyone still contributes well to the skills, the combat, and the role play. The thing is, there will always be situations where one class may do better than another, but the group has to work together to survive. It is not a case of each PC fights on its own.
Jack99
Adventurer
At high level casters become very effective against lower level foes, as they have a very hard time making any save targetting one of their poorer stats. On the other hand, legendary creatures can make casters cry at times.
Melee types shine more against the single big bad monster (in general) while dealing with hordes can be somewhat more challenging.
Melee types shine more against the single big bad monster (in general) while dealing with hordes can be somewhat more challenging.
Prism
Explorer
We have played a single high level session (20th) and it seemed to work out pretty well. We have another in a couple of weeks. Things I observed...
Bounded accuracy seemed to work. We fought against several horned devils (CR11) and a horned devil boss (max hit points and a magic weapon) and they were still very threatening
We used high level spells out of combat to get to the encounter (particularly gate). Had we arrived fully loaded it would have been easier
Shield is still a great spell at high level - it protected the rogue against a full round of attacks from several devils
Shield is still a difficult spell to judge at high level - after casting shield all of the devils surrounding the rogue charged at the wizard without fear of opportunity attacks and nearly took him out in a single round
A high level fighter does lots of damage and is pretty adaptable
Magic resistance is awesome (or not if you are the caster trying to work out how to take out devils with spells)
Illusions are still surprisingly effective until they are not (you run into the big guys). A single seeming spell got us through a devil army for the most part
Bounded accuracy seemed to work. We fought against several horned devils (CR11) and a horned devil boss (max hit points and a magic weapon) and they were still very threatening
We used high level spells out of combat to get to the encounter (particularly gate). Had we arrived fully loaded it would have been easier
Shield is still a great spell at high level - it protected the rogue against a full round of attacks from several devils
Shield is still a difficult spell to judge at high level - after casting shield all of the devils surrounding the rogue charged at the wizard without fear of opportunity attacks and nearly took him out in a single round
A high level fighter does lots of damage and is pretty adaptable
Magic resistance is awesome (or not if you are the caster trying to work out how to take out devils with spells)
Illusions are still surprisingly effective until they are not (you run into the big guys). A single seeming spell got us through a devil army for the most part
I've played lots of high level combat and the balance is fine. Better than any edition of D&D to date.
Yes, spells can be powerful against low level foes, but they're a much more limited resource now. A wizard could wipe out 30 Orc but when facing a dragon he's going to want Mr Fighter. As mentioned martials tend to out damage casters against single powerful tough foes, casters out damage martials against groups.
Yes, spells can be powerful against low level foes, but they're a much more limited resource now. A wizard could wipe out 30 Orc but when facing a dragon he's going to want Mr Fighter. As mentioned martials tend to out damage casters against single powerful tough foes, casters out damage martials against groups.
Mouseferatu
Hero
To expand on what Minigiant said, high-level casters may exceed high-level fighters against huge numbers of weaker creatures, but against one or two big bads? Fighters come out way ahead. In the upper teens, the champion fighter and the paladin (thanks to smite) were easily responsible for the vast majority of damage dealt against what in 4E would have been called solos.
Were the casters useless? Not remotely. But the idea that high-level play favors the casters in combat is simply not borne out by anything I've experienced.
Were the casters useless? Not remotely. But the idea that high-level play favors the casters in combat is simply not borne out by anything I've experienced.
It kind of depends. You talking standard orcs? Thirty standard orcs would not butcher a high level fighter unless he was built extremely poor and used poor tactics. A high level fighter's AC will be in the 18-20 range. He'll have well over a 100 hit points. He'll be able to dish 22 points of damage or more a hit against orcs using Great Weapon Mastery. That is usually enough to kill an orc a hit. He should be able to take them down at three to four a round eliminating attacks as she does so. It won't be as easy as a caster, but he' can do it. The fighter and paladin in our group motor through trash mobs. They take some damage, but every enemy doesn't hit. They hit almost every attack. My wizard tosses in a fireball or other AoE attack to speed things up.
The high level martials shine against single tough mobs or groups of semi-tough mobs. Whereas life as a caster is tough against creatures with magic or legendary resistance. You have to plan your spell use carefully to deal with those abilities.
It's pretty balanced as far as I can tell. Our party is 15th level. Everyone is contributing at a relatively equal level. The martials do the most damage. The casters make sure the party can match the mobility and special abilities of the opponent. That's the main thing casters do is allow a party to meet or exceed what the opponent is doing beyond dealing damage. They get to do some nice damage themselves while doing so.
I can say for certain the caster-martial disparity is a lot closer than in 3E, meaning a DM doesn't have to do as much to make sure casters don't dominate fights. Martial damage has been toned down, so DMs don't have to do as much to deal with crazy crit damage and the like. Seems to make for a better experience for everyone involved.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
There are two of these threads.
And I thought I was just going crazy.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...igh-level-How-s-the-caster-non-caster-balance
Mods: please merge.
And I thought I was just going crazy.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...igh-level-How-s-the-caster-non-caster-balance
Mods: please merge.
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