High Level Play - The Eternal Question

[Vrindlevine]

I've always been curious about the dislike of high level play that I see leveled at various systems. Naturally this is fairly dependent on exactly which system is being discussed. Probably DnD is the most common target of criticism due to its popularity, but there are plenty of other systems out there that support advancement of characters to greater powers and either work or don't at those higher "levels."

If any of the provided poll answers get your brain going then please comment with any details or experiences you might want to share about specific situations where high-level play worked or didn't work for you, especially those regarding non-DnD systems. similarly, the provided poll has some things that I either commonly see or think of while musing on possible reasons, if you think there is another reason I forgot throw a comment down below on what you think the reason might be!

Edit: By popular demand I have made this an unlimited choices poll.

 

[prabe]

I like high-level play just fine, at least in the systems in which I'm most familiar with it (that'd be D&D 5e and Cypher) but none of those reasons for disliking it are exactly wrong, especially not as applied to 5e (it's the "support" things I'm pointing at, here). I don't find it to require all that much more effort than low- or mid-level play, but I am at this point well aware that my experiences on that count are kinda idiosyncratic.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't feel the need for high-level play in my games... because I am really ambivalent about game mechanics. I care about story and narrative, and can run the same adventures that I want to run regardless of the level the characters are at. I don't need the PCs to be Level 15 to go to the Outer Planes and adventure... I can have them do it at Level 6. Now I certainly CAN have PCs adventure at high-level... I'm not morally opposed to it... but I tend to find the stories and narratives of my campaign and its PCs wrap themselves up sooner rather than later, meaning I just never reach those levels before the game has run its course. And I'm fine with that.

The only thing for me gained by high-level play is seeing features & spells in play that I might never have seen before. And that's... fine... I guess. But again, since I don't really care about those sorts of things... they are not nearly enough of a reason to keep forcing the game to reach them at those levels.

 

[Scribe]

I think it's a problem of expectation. If you fight a dragon, solo, is that not epic or high level play?

 

[AnotherGuy]

At the outset multiple answers could be selected here.
We play D&D and have been playing high-level for a few years now - above 12th (currently 15th).
It works because we

• Changed up the rest system, introduced HD spend on ability recovery and tied it to the exhaustion track.
• Introduced TIBF beyond the basic 4, a character can gain 1 every 2 levels or the DM can ascribe them one due to story at the behest of the PC and via me made the use them in game interesting
• Introduced multi-class cost, improved feats, allowed innovativeness with spells (upscaling etc), added a ritual cost (HD), changed skill expertise and general skill use so the numbers work for us, provided odd-number benefits on attributes etc
• Buffed up monsters for realism/internal consistency

Now at high level

• As DM you are able to create multiple high stakes with some hard choices
• PCs are able to push further and longer so the story keeps moving, and when if they need to take a Long Rest - it is because they really need to and not because the system requires it
• Travel becomes interesting particularly with the various choice in travel mode and locations visited
• As a DM you can throw the monster book at them and then some, you can create far more interesting complex encounters, unique locations and challenges
• Characters can become involved in setting-changing events, deal with a multitude of interesting setting characters, advocate greater in story direction

Lastly I have a great set of players that trust me and have given me freedom as a DM and I have reciprocated that approach with them of course - not that this is specific to high level play, but it becomes even more necessary at high level play as the tools their characters have increase exponentially.

 

[Bluenose]

High Level play or High Power play? There is a difference.
Superhero games, Exalted, some other WoD games, Earthdawn, and I'm sure people can think of other examples are High Power games. The better ones handle this sort of power level well enough to be fun to play. As an aside,
High Level play implies the existence of low level play. This is where things can get problematic as a lot of effort is likely put into maing the start of the game fun, and at some point you've got to move from design and playtesting to publishing, and the parts that don't get as much attention probably end up being a bit iffy in practice.
My theory is that it isn't actually ashard to make high-end play work. But it's hard to make igh-end play if you're concentrating on lower power levels and have a deadline to get something out.

 

[Umbran]

I think it's a problem of expectation. If you fight a dragon, solo, is that not epic or high level play?

Well, dragon's go down to CR 1 - a level 4 character could mop one up pretty easily. Wold that be epic or high level?

Heck, technically kobolds have the Dragon type. They go as low as CR 1/8.

Which is to say, "Depends on what you mean by 'dragon."

 

[Scribe]

Well, dragon's go down to CR 1 - a level 4 character could mop one up pretty easily. Wold that be epic or high level?

Heck, technically kobolds have the Dragon type. They go as low as CR 1/8.

Which is to say, "Depends on what you mean by 'dragon."

All depending on edition, yes sure.

Here is a Black Dragon. Is this not high level and epic if encountered solo or even with just a few characters?

 

[aco175]

I find that the level gets to a point and the game looses flavor for me. Everything becomes too super or too grand. As the DM, I find it hard to design things I find less desirable in coming up with. The last adventure was 14th level and I had the PCs in the feywild dealing with children taken from their bastion lands. There was some rather fantastic elements of plant creatures, a super banshee, and fey elves galore. I just found myself not caring much on the story at that point.

I'm not interested in saving the world on that scale or plane jumping that much or dealing with gods on a personal level.

 

[Coroc]

Don't try to define high level play by high CR monsters, low level adventures might have CR20 monsters appearing, in this case the only viable option might be to run like hell.

High level play according to my (mostly 2e) sources is, that the focus shifts. And that requires a campaign world with a meaningful framework aka politics, powers that be, some greater goal, etc. etc.
And the players should be able to interfer with these schemes and plots not only because they got the firepower to do it, but also because they got influence and reknown, alliances and enemies and so on.

Combined with the ability to take on really powerful opponents this is what defines good high level play in my point of view.