High Level Play - The Eternal Question

[bloodtide]

This one jumped out at me...can people weigh in on teleport being that disruptive? In 5e, it's a 7th level spell, so you only ever have 1 of them per long rest (2 at 20)...that's a big opportunity cost. Simply knowing the location of something would qualify as "described," meaning a high chance of a mishap, so that's a problem too (though really, not a huge one).

I don't know...teleport doesn't seem like the breaker it used to be; I'm not shy about criticizing 5e, but this seems like one of the areas they sufficiently addressed...is there an aspect I am overlooking?

Well, you get more teleports....an other such transportation...as levels go up. Scrolls and magic items can sure increase the number too.

And it really does only take one teleport to do a classic scry and die. DND has always had the idea of the video game mentality that the world is "fair". So all fights take place with the foes standing there 24/7 doing the 'video game battle stance'. Of course, if you don't follow that, you can do the unfair teleport attack at like 1AM when the foes would not be ready and prepared.

And, well, for some games the "Long Rest" is not really a thing. In the gameplay, the characters can "long rest" every other minute or two as needed.

My own houserule for all teleports is you can only teleport to a place you have physically been too and carefully studied for at least an hour. This is nice and simple and stops 99% of teleports problems. I also use all the 2-3E anti teleport spells and magic items, and consider such things very common. My favorite is Waethra's warm welcome that sends teleports to a room filled with magic missles that blast them from all sides.

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[Eric V]

Well, you get more teleports....an other such transportation...as levels go up. Scrolls and magic items can sure increase the number too.

And it really does only take one teleport to do a classic scry and die. DND has always had the idea of the video game mentality that the world is "fair". So all fights take place with the foes standing there 24/7 doing the 'video game battle stance'. Of course, if you don't follow that, you can do the unfair teleport attack at like 1AM when the foes would not be ready and prepared.

And, well, for some games the "Long Rest" is not really a thing. In the gameplay, the characters can "long rest" every other minute or two as needed.

My own houserule for all teleports is you can only teleport to a place you have physically been too and carefully studied for at least an hour. This is nice and simple and stops 99% of teleports problems. I also use all the 2-3E anti teleport spells and magic items, and consider such things very common. My favorite is Waethra's warm welcome that sends teleports to a room filled with magic missles that blast them from all sides.

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So, again not trying to argue, but hasn't 5e addressed all this? Being scryed upon allows for a saving throw, and the teleport to that area is not a guarantee. I know the Helm of Teleportation allows more teleports, but I can't think of another item. There just aren't many opportunities to do this maneuver in 5e as there used to be*, especially when one considers that a Long Rest can only be 1/24 hour period.

This is why I was asking; it really looks like, at least as far as the teleport-ruins-adventure idea goes, 5e RAW has addressed it, and that's before considering spells like Hallow.

* Like in 2e, which the party could do a lot more of.

 

[bloodtide]

So, again not trying to argue, but hasn't 5e addressed all this?

No?

I guess I'd ask that if you think that one wisdom save and a low chance of missing the target with no real consequences, is Enough?

You can just scry once a day until the save is failed right? (and you can scry once per person on a target too, wink wink) And even if the teleport fails you only end up somewhere else close by with no harm most of the time.

So, even just sticking to the core rules this would work after a couple weeks of trying, right?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Never thought about this, but its absolutely true, even PF2e does not have an even distribution of "high level" options across all its classes. Though this is something that 4e fixes and also my own 4e inspired system.

Some of that is just some of the classes have been around longer, and thus have accumlated more add-on options.

Agree 100%. My session tonight (not me GMing) was 3 1/2 hours and I think were just over the halfway point on a boss fight?

If that was PF2e, that's odd; I found our PF2e high level fights, while probably longer than the bottom end ones, were remarkably quick compared to many games (I'd say I never saw one that actually took longer than two hours, and that was really, really unusual).

Some games can take much longer, but they do so because of either high detail in resolution or so many options they breed option paralysis. And of course both of those multiply out with number of players.

Partially agree here. I think you can do high level with simple rules, nothing immedietely comes to mind, but it would probably involve a lot of "domain play".

I also think it depends whether one's perception of "high level" is more about advancement or scale.

 

[Scott Christian]

I prefer lower levels, but I chose the "significantly more effort" because it does. What I really wanted to see was "Time" listed as a deterrent. High level fights can take forever.

 

[Eric V]

No?

I guess I'd ask that if you think that one wisdom save and a low chance of missing the target with no real consequences, is Enough?

You can just scry once a day until the save is failed right? (and you can scry once per person on a target too, wink wink) And even if the teleport fails you only end up somewhere else close by with no harm most of the time.

So, even just sticking to the core rules this would work after a couple weeks of trying, right?

Where are those scry attempts coming from, though? It's a 5th level spell each time...

 

[aramis erak]

Partially agree here. I think you can do high level with simple rules, nothing immedietely comes to mind, but it would probably involve a lot of "domain play".

Pendragon comes to mind. In 1e, the economics options for landholders are half of a book, and those were not long books. Econ is 30 pages of the 80 page Noble's Book, War is 19 pages. (Players is 88pp. GM's is 24pp.) There's a lot of setting info in the player's book.

 

[bloodtide]

Where are those scry attempts coming from, though? It's a 5th level spell each time...

We are talking about high level characters? So like 13th level plus.....

 

[Blue]

Welp, for a question in TT General, I needed to choose all but one of the options. Because it really depends on the system. Some don't handle high level play well, others do, and I both like high level play, but prefer low (and mid!) level play in other systems. GMs/players (myself included) generally lack experience in systems that do it badly, but not in systems that do it well, and in some systems it takes a lot more effort. All of those are true in some systems.

Heck, to get as close as possible I'll never run a high-level D&D 3.5 with splatbooks again, but will gladly run campaigns that get up to max level in 13th Age which is a d20 OGL based off the same foundational ruleset.

And that's just D&D-like systems. There are plenty of non-D&D systems that handle high level well. If we could include other TTRPGs that are not level-based but at the matching high-powered concept it would increase exponentially.

 

[Eric V]

We are talking about high level characters? So like 13th level plus.....

Right. Even at 17th level, it's only 2 5th level slots.