D&D General Horror is hard

[Remathilis]

I did mention Revivify. It's tough to preserve a horrific atmosphere when the PCs are adroit at mitigating harm and long term consequences aren't really a thing. We've all seen combat encounters that turn into hilarious games of Whack-a-Mole as a PC is downed, brought back, downed again, brought back again, and so on and so forth until the creature is finally defeated.

Revivify requires a 300 gp diamond. How close a friend is Brother Thadius that the PCs are going to spend that sort of money on them?

I can't possibly count the number of times PCs have used healing spells to recover being reduced to zero or fewer hit points due to an orc's axe, being burnt to a crisp by a dragon's breath, dropped a few hundred feet by a Roc, or through some other comically heinous violence only to pop up as if nothing had happened to them. As a DM, I'd feel like a jerk for just telling the PCs this particular NPC was mortally wounded considering how healing spells have been used throughout every campaign I've ever run or participated in as a player.

Your missing the point. Replace "healing spell" with "medicine check" and what changes? The NPCs either gets better or they die. If they were supposed to die, then the medicine check is as narrative breaking as the healing spell. If it doesn't matter, then the problem never was a problem to begin with. The root of the problem is that the PCs have a chance to act to save Thadius in the first place, not the method they used. If Thadius is supposed to die regardless of what actions the PCs do, it was a railroad from the onset. If it doesn't matter if he lives or dies, then the method he was saved with (magic, medicine, etc) is irrelevant.

And as an aside, do you roll death saves for every NPC, or do they drop dead at zero HP? Because unless you are rolling saves for every goblin they fight, you have already established that death rules are different for PCs and NPCs and PC Bob might be able to spring up after being reduced to 0 hp, but the NPC goblin he just reduced to zero HP isn't coming back up...

 

[MGibster]

Revivify requires a 300 gp diamond. How close a friend is Brother Thadius that the PCs are going to spend that sort of money on them?

It's a spell accessible at 5th level and 300 gp is a trivial expense.

Your missing the point. Replace "healing spell" with "medicine check" and what changes?

Nothing. I simply forgot to list medicine check as one of the many ways for PCs to avoid death.

Iff you don't think the rules for D&D get in the way of horror, that's okay. I've made my case as best I can and you disagree. That's cool, but I don't see any reason to continue down this line of discussion as it's unlikely to be productive. We simply see things differently.

 

[Remathilis]

Nothing. I simply forgot to list medicine check as one of the many ways for PCs to avoid death.

Iff you don't think the rules for D&D get in the way of horror, that's okay. I've made my case as best I can and you disagree. That's cool, but I don't see any reason to continue down this line of discussion as it's unlikely to be productive. We simply see things differently.

I'm saying that the scenario you chose would break in any RPG where PCs have access to field medicine or reliable healing abilities. D&D is hardly alone with that problem, it would be a problem in most RPGs.

But you don't have to tell me D&D is bad at true horror: D&D is hardly the all-purpose toolkit people claim it to be.

 

[AlViking]

Tomb of Annihilation had a death curse, no one could be brought back from the dead. A game I played in had a type of wound/disease that no matter how much you heal you slowly start taking damage again. Certain monsters in 5e reduce max HP, I could see making it more difficult to recover than a long rest.

Yes it requires a handful of house rules but if you have player buy-in for a horror game I don't see the issue. Ban a couple of spells, occasionally healing doesn't work like expected, limit options for resting. Characters still level up, but at a pace decided by the group, meanwhile the monster also level up.

I see different games working differently out of the box, but I'm not seeing anything that requires a rewrite of the rules, just changing expectations of what the game's themes are. For me if the death or disability rate is high, I'm just not going to care much about my character. In my home game I have a death by massive damage house rule and don't cap damage from falling - fall from high enough and you're dead. If an NPC is dying, it's likely because of a slow acting poison or infection that keeps doing damage perhaps a fast-acting disease. Sometimes they die simply because they're commoners and aren't as resilient as PCs; for the most part I don't use the dying NPC trope because I think it's overdone. Instead I'll have a dead NPC with a note or a second NPC that can relay the dying NPC's last words.

So if I were going to implement a horror campaign I'd consider a new threat to the land - the burning curse. People who die stay dead, nobody knows why. Some people get infected with the burning disease, remove disease doesn't work because it's a supernatural disease. Others take damage and suffer what people call burning wounds - wounds that continue to burn doing slow damage that can't be stopped. Healing potions and ingredients for them are hard to find because they're being hoarded.

Even worse there are the burning infected of multiple types. Some turn into zombie like creatures, if they damage you give you a burning wound. Other infected are secretly being controlled by some unknown entity making spells like detect thoughts or zone of truth ineffective. Worst are the burning ghosts that inject themselves into people's dreams meaning they can rest just enough not to be exhausted most of the time but not enough to truly recover*. In this campaign in order to get a long rest you have to find a sanctuary - someplace protected from the influence of the burning curse. A special drug may also grant a restful night's sleep but it can only be taken so often and there's a chance of addiction or other nasty side effects.

All of this would, of course, require player buy-in, but so would CoC. I'm not saying it would be perfect, but then again it seems like a lot of horror from horror games comes from theme than anything. Of course I also never really cared for things like level drain either - we just kind of ignored it in games I played back in the day. It's not going to be CoC or any other horror focused game of course, I just don't think the rules of the game are so inelastic that you can't get close. I wouldn't do it, but I only want horror in small doses anyway which I've done plenty of times in D&D.

*Or just tell people the reason PCs heal overnight is because humanoids unknowingly have inherent magic that isn't working any more, they just never questioned why they healed so quickly because it was normal. They now heal and recover like a real world person.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

A friend ran a great horror game using D&D once. The prologue was we were kids at the orphanage, and the older kids dared us to stay at the old Wycker House overnight. No one ever had. Typical haunted house premise, as we played hide and seek throughout the house. One NPC was a boy who brought his sister. We all managed to survive the haunting, but his sister was crippled because she hid in the dumbwaiter and it mysteriously dropped, mangling her legs.

Flash forward, we were now adults and returning to the town for that boy's funeral. As he got older, he became obsessed with this house, why it had never been able to be destroyed, having arson committed on it only to reappear the next full moon or whatever. He left his notes, and a note to his sister - now a grown woman in a wheelchair - saying he had discovered a secret that would let him cross to this other world, where a mirror of the house stood. He took his equipment and said he was going to destroy it, no matter the cost. He never returned.

What made this campaign great was we all, as a group, committed to the buy-in of making it true horror. An attempt to limit outside talk amongst us, deliberate attempts to really feel the theme and motif of the world. It was pretty amazing.

I know that aspect seems very hard to capture at the tables I've played. As tough as it sounds to do, also, I have an idea I would like to try, and I don't know that I know the right players any more locally who would buy-in, but I would like to take up the character sheets after character creation. It's been my experience as a player where it's hard for me to feel afraid when I know I still have remaining hit points, especially in a system where mechanically you're still generally as functional at 100 hp as you are at 1 hp.

Everyone's experience will vary of course.

 

[MichaelSomething]

There's always Dread if you want horror gaming.

 

[Deset Gled]

There's always Dread if you want horror gaming.

Alternate games are always a choice; there's a lot of choices out that there, and some (like Dread) can be extremely different from D&D.

But I chose to post this thread as a D&D thread to to discuss what can be done within the structure of this game. Mainly because I am intrigued by the series of horror themed things WotC has been pushing out lately, and how they will actually work within the intended game and goals. Also, my group is one of many that prefers 5e (although they're theoretically open to other options) so I have motivations to stay within it when possible.

 

[MGibster]

I'm saying that the scenario you chose would break in any RPG where PCs have access to field medicine or reliable healing abilities. D&D is hardly alone with that problem, it would be a problem in most RPGs.

It occurs to me that I didn't make my point clearly. The problem isn't that the PCs might be able to save Brother Thaddeus. In a game like Call of Cthulhu: Dark Ages, an Investigator might very well make a First Aid roll and save Thaddeus. But saving Thaddeus is never a sure thing. Even if there are no penalties assigned to the skill roll, there's always a chance the investigator fails their roll which builds suspense.

No such uncertainty exists in D&D because magic isn't just reliable it's foolproof. Barring some odd situations, casting Cure Light Wounds, using a potion, or when necessary a spell like Revivify is absolutely going to work and there will be no consequences from the wound. The way the game works removes a great deal of suspense from the scene.

This is common in a lot of high fantasy games, but it isn't present in most of the games I play. In Cyberpunk 2020, it simply isn't a given the MedTech will be able to save the Solo's life as he lays bleeding out of the stump where his arm used to be. And if he does save the Solo, he's got to get a new arm. In Delta Green, it's not a given a critically injured Agent can be saved, and if saved, it's not a given they won't have long term injuries that lower their attributes. I don't think my scenario is a problem in every game.

 

[Remathilis]

It occurs to me that I didn't make my point clearly. The problem isn't that the PCs might be able to save Brother Thaddeus. In a game like Call of Cthulhu: Dark Ages, an Investigator might very well make a First Aid roll and save Thaddeus. But saving Thaddeus is never a sure thing. Even if there are no penalties assigned to the skill roll, there's always a chance the investigator fails their roll which builds suspense.

No such uncertainty exists in D&D because magic isn't just reliable it's foolproof. Barring some odd situations, casting Cure Light Wounds, using a potion, or when necessary a spell like Revivify is absolutely going to work and there will be no consequences from the wound. The way the game works removes a great deal of suspense from the scene.

This is common in a lot of high fantasy games, but it isn't present in most of the games I play. In Cyberpunk 2020, it simply isn't a given the MedTech will be able to save the Solo's life as he lays bleeding out of the stump where his arm used to be. And if he does save the Solo, he's got to get a new arm. In Delta Green, it's not a given a critically injured Agent can be saved, and if saved, it's not a given they won't have long term injuries that lower their attributes. I don't think my scenario is a problem in every game.

I don't disagree that is has a lot to do with the system, and the same situation would be a problem in Star Wars or Shadowrun. The situation you presented was clearly not created for D&D, so of course D&D is gonna break it. I mean, a Xenomorph is a threatening foe against a Traveller PC but it's mincemeat against a group of Jedi!

But I feel my point stands: your still stuck with one of two results in that Thadius dies or he lives. At this point we're quibbling on the % chance of either option. Magic makes it a 100% chance, but if a skilled healer can still make it a 50%, 75% or 90% chance, the net effect is the same. Which is why you shouldn't hinge the situation on him dying. That's just asking for the scenario to go south.

 

[Whisper-Kitten]

Music might help build the tension honsetly.