D&D General Horror is hard

[Sorinth]

No, you are addressing that criticism to the wrong poster. the post I quoted was an entirely subjective personal distinction refuting a partially quoted post about how previously scary monsters had an impact on play.
"It's not scary it's frustrating" is a pointless distinction unless it can be delivered in combination with a description of how it impacts play differently. Everyone seems to agree or accept that the old $WORD monsters prior to 5e very much had an impact on play with nobody trying to claim the less mechanically $WORD 5e monsters having that same level of effect on play

For the record I wasn't disputing that these abilities can have an impact on play, I was disputing that these abilities mean they are a good fit for a Horror genre.

If when fighting a rust monster simply meant we put away our cool weapons and beat it to death with clubs then that's not the rust monster being scary it's the rust monster being annoying.

 

[Sorinth]

I think to make death a frightening event, you would have to create a scenario where death is uncommon (characters have a reasonable chance of survival), and meaningful (death has weight both mechanically and narratively). Thus, when it happens it's viewed as a tragedy, not a statistic.

Any tool in a GM's box that is used to frighten players - which for many players isn't going to happen no matter what - is used too often or too capriciously is going to loose it's effectiveness no matter what game you're playing.

Death is frightening when two things are true, the players is invested in and cares about the character's survival, and they believe it to be somewhat imminent. But this isn't actually restricted to character death, anything the player cares about that looks to be at risk of being destroyed can be frightening.

The conclusion we should probably draw is that more then most genres D&D Horror requires the players to be invested in and care about things in the game world. While the PCs are the obvious starting point for what the players themselves will care about, if it's the only thing they care about then it seems destined that the game will fizzle out because you are going back to the same well over and over again. You need the players to care about more then just themselves plus maybe an NPC or two from their collective backstories.

Now obviously how much a player cares about in world stuff is going to change from one person to another, but one thing I've learnt over the years is that how much they care comes down to how much agency they had in it. So if you want them to care about a town that is under threat they need to have either, been involved in the creative process of building it, been involved in how it has grown/changed over time, or have an understanding with the DM that they will have agency over how the town grows/changes over time after they save the town.

 

[MGibster]

But here is the crux of the argument: death cannot be feared if it is"fun". Several posters have made references to the player fearing for their character's life. The idea that "energy drain is scary" is rooted in the idea that players fear a horrible, pointless death.

Oh, I think they've got it wrong about energy drain. I've very often heard players say they would rather their character die than to have levels drained, lose an important magic item, or otherwise be permanently hampered in some way. D&D players weren't scared of death they were afraid of losing control or having a permanent setback.

I'm sure academics have written something about the connection between fear and fun. We do things that scare us for fun. We go on rollercoasters, we watch scary movies, and sometimes we taunt Happy Fun Ball knowing we shouldn't do that. When audiences first watch Alien in 1979, they knew it was fiction, but they still reacted as if it was real. Except for the bearded guy in the back left who was oddly into it. Scaring ourselves is fun. Grossing ourselves out is fun. Having a character of mine lose their mind as they worms eating him from the inside out is a rollicking good time. Horror is something we do for entertainment because recreational fear is fun.

There's a big difference between death being a possibility and death being highly likely or even practically guaranteed. If I know my character is probably going to die or have the last several sessions wiped out by level drain I'm not going to care. It just becomes a pawn and I have a half dozen new PCs written up to take their place.

There's certainly a fine line between a rollicking good time and frustration. In games like Call of Cthulhu, I simply accept my character is likely to die or lose their mind. The fun is seeing how far my character can go. But then I have a very different mindset when playing D&D than I do when playing a horror game. I'm generally not looking for the same experience in D&D that I am from Alien.

 

[Remathilis]

Oh, I think they've got it wrong about energy drain. I've very often heard players say they would rather their character die than to have levels drained, lose an important magic item, or otherwise be permanently hampered in some way. D&D players weren't scared of death they were afraid of losing control or having a permanent setback.

Yeah, as I said before I saw a player who was playing a high level fighter remark he'd rather his PC die than lose his magical gear because it's easier to come back from the dead than get new powerful gear (and this was in 2e). But I'm kinda lumping all the general bad stuff a long rest can't cure into "death" for this purpose. At the end of the day, it's a setback and the amount of setback a player is willing to endure is still not fear.

I'm sure academics have written something about the connection between fear and fun. We do things that scare us for fun. We go on rollercoasters, we watch scary movies, and sometimes we taunt Happy Fun Ball knowing we shouldn't do that. When audiences first watch Alien in 1979, they knew it was fiction, but they still reacted as if it was real. Except for the bearded guy in the back left who was oddly into it. Scaring ourselves is fun. Grossing ourselves out is fun. Having a character of mine lose their mind as they worms eating him from the inside out is a rollicking good time. Horror is something we do for entertainment because recreational fear is fun.

Yes, fear can be fun. But that's the catch 22. If fear is fun, it's failing at its purpose as trigger for survival instinct.

So let's say your PCs hear about a haunted house. Exploring spooky buildings is a fun past time in real life and in fiction. However, the wise player knows what haunting creatures can do: ghosts who age with a gaze, spectres and wraiths who drain levels, shadows that sap strength. And those are just the known ones! So you have a fundemenatal tension: fear of losing your character to death/debilitation should mean the characters opt for lower risk venture like fighting goblins. Even if they don't know what's there, the first appearance of a spectral undead should have them running for the exits if players truly fear losing their character. But they don't. They stock up on silver and holy water and grab a cleric or three and go exploring because that's fun and the worst case scenario is you roll up a new PC because the last one got crippled or killed. So the idea that the players walk into the haunted house and come out 97 years old and back to level 3 isn't a deterrent enough to be a real cause of fear. The only way you get fear is if the player themselves decide to be afraid.

 

[bsss]

Horror is something we do for entertainment because recreational fear is fun.

Buried in my feelings on this thread is the sense that I don't think I've ever, in any of my horror games that I believe were successful, gotten the sense that I truly scared my players or that they even wanted to be scared, as in legitimately scared. It's again part of why I think game lethality is not co-indicative with the concept of horror games.

Players that like horror games like the tropes of horror more than feeling earnest terror or even earnest dread. They want the simulation of terror and dread and so on. They will have their character go make out with an NPC in the woods with glee, knowing full well it's a stupid move and welcoming the in-fiction ramifications. Their characters don't know they're in a horror situation, but their players know. There's a pretty hard firewall between the related emotional states.

 

[Remathilis]

Buried in my feelings on this thread is the sense that I don't think I've ever, in any of my horror games that I believe were successful, gotten the sense that I truly scared my players or that they even wanted to be scared, as in legitimately scared. It's again part of why I think game lethality is not co-indicative with the concept of horror games.

Players that like horror games like the tropes of horror more than feeling earnest terror or even earnest dread. They want the simulation of terror and dread and so on. They will have their character go make out with an NPC in the woods with glee, knowing full well it's a stupid move and welcoming the in-fiction ramifications. Their characters don't know they're in a horror situation, but their players know. There's a pretty hard firewall between the related emotional states.

This. This is what I've been trying to say. Thank you!

 

[AlViking]

Oh, I think they've got it wrong about energy drain. I've very often heard players say they would rather their character die than to have levels drained, lose an important magic item, or otherwise be permanently hampered in some way. D&D players weren't scared of death they were afraid of losing control or having a permanent setback.

I'm sure academics have written something about the connection between fear and fun. We do things that scare us for fun. We go on rollercoasters, we watch scary movies, and sometimes we taunt Happy Fun Ball knowing we shouldn't do that. When audiences first watch Alien in 1979, they knew it was fiction, but they still reacted as if it was real. Except for the bearded guy in the back left who was oddly into it. Scaring ourselves is fun. Grossing ourselves out is fun. Having a character of mine lose their mind as they worms eating him from the inside out is a rollicking good time. Horror is something we do for entertainment because recreational fear is fun.

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We all found level drain just an annoyance and never used it, especially because it took forever to level up since we never used GP for XP. Not even sure we knew it was an option.

There's certainly a fine line between a rollicking good time and frustration. In games like Call of Cthulhu, I simply accept my character is likely to die or lose their mind. The fun is seeing how far my character can go. But then I have a very different mindset when playing D&D than I do when playing a horror game. I'm generally not looking for the same experience in D&D that I am from Alien.

Which is one of the many reasons I wouldn't want to play that game. I want challenge in the games I play but when the end is inevitable death I wouldn't really care about my character because I know they're disposable. Then again I find most slasher films kind of boring nowadays.

 

[AlViking]

Yeah, as I said before I saw a player who was playing a high level fighter remark he'd rather his PC die than lose his magical gear because it's easier to come back from the dead than get new powerful gear (and this was in 2e). But I'm kinda lumping all the general bad stuff a long rest can't cure into "death" for this purpose. At the end of the day, it's a setback and the amount of setback a player is willing to endure is still not fear.

Yes, fear can be fun. But that's the catch 22. If fear is fun, it's failing at its purpose as trigger for survival instinct.

So let's say your PCs hear about a haunted house. Exploring spooky buildings is a fun past time in real life and in fiction. However, the wise player knows what haunting creatures can do: ghosts who age with a gaze, spectres and wraiths who drain levels, shadows that sap strength. And those are just the known ones! So you have a fundemenatal tension: fear of losing your character to death/debilitation should mean the characters opt for lower risk venture like fighting goblins. Even if they don't know what's there, the first appearance of a spectral undead should have them running for the exits if players truly fear losing their character. But they don't. They stock up on silver and holy water and grab a cleric or three and go exploring because that's fun and the worst case scenario is you roll up a new PC because the last one got crippled or killed. So the idea that the players walk into the haunted house and come out 97 years old and back to level 3 isn't a deterrent enough to be a real cause of fear. The only way you get fear is if the player themselves decide to be afraid.

On a side note, ghosts that caused aging was one of the reasons elves were so popular back in the day. Oh no! I aged 50 and only have 850 instead of 900 years left? What will I do?

 

[MGibster]

Buried in my feelings on this thread is the sense that I don't think I've ever, in any of my horror games that I believe were successful, gotten the sense that I truly scared my players or that they even wanted to be scared, as in legitimately scared. It's again part of why I think game lethality is not co-indicative with the concept of horror games.

Trying to scare your players is a fool's errand. I don't think I've ever actually scared my players either. I'm with you, lethality is not a determining factor in whether a game is horror nor not.

Which is one of the many reasons I wouldn't want to play that game. I want challenge in the games I play but when the end is inevitable death I wouldn't really care about my character because I know they're disposable. Then again I find most slasher films kind of boring nowadays.

It's not inevitable. I've had Call of Cthulhu campaigns go their entire course without killing all the players. Death is just a lot more likely in CoC than it is D&D.

 

[GrimCo]

Mechanics are nice if you want your character to be scared, panicked, anxious, while at the same time, player is just having some fun rolling dice and enjoying game with friends.

I ran fair bit of games where horror was targeted at players, not characters. It's doable, but it's hard. It requires trust between people in group, emotional commitment, emotional and mental bandwidth, serious talks in session 0 about boundaries and topics that are forbidden, bonus is if you are all close friends who really know each other. Even with all of that, we had few sessions when one of the players put X card on the table in the middle of the scene. Now, i'm in bdsm/kink scene for a long time, so i treat horror games in a same way i treat kink play. Soft limits/hard limits, safe word (X card), aftercare ( decompression, laughter) and consent. Since we all became parents, we don't play Changeling. Full stop. I won't run it, my group won't play it. Anything related to kids is banned at my table.