D&D General Horror is hard

[Deset Gled]

The key to truly scary horror is only having your wits to survive regardless of the type of horror. Otherwise, it's just another D&D undead encounter.

(That is, most zero level characters don't have anything but their wits)

Pure slasher, horror, maybe.

But a lot of horror is about people who are ostensibly high level, fully equipped heroes who have trouble despite having every advantage. In Alien (and a similar Mothership game), the characters are backed by science and tech well beyond our own and still struggle. In Dracula (and many similar Victorian-style RPGs), the characters are high class, wealthy, and have the best manpower and medicine that money can buy and still struggle. In Call of Cthulhu the players have guns, state-of-the art travel and forensics, and still struggle.

The issue in those settings is that the horror-thing (whatever it is) plays by a different set of rules that finds ways to subvert the characters advantages. But critically, the characters still have those advantages, and the horror-thing absolutely must play by some set of rules. This allows the type of narrative where the players are powerful but still forced to be creative. And the enemy isn't easy to take down, but also follows a logic that allows a meaningful conclusion (as opposed to an invulnerable monster that pops up for jump scares in Act 1 and inexplicably dies to the plot in Act 3).

 

[tetrasodium]

Discussing this made me think of The Walking Dead TV show. I gave up watching it a while back (is the show or its spin-offs still running?) but I think that something that happens on the show is pretty inevitable.

When the show starts, people are terrified of the zombies - the call them "walkers" because zombies were never a thing in their universe - but after a while walkers are a bit humdrum. The real threat is other people.

Which is the problem I see with trying to do horror long term, after a while it's just the same-old same-old. The survivors have gotten used to the walkers, they know how to kill them, what happens if they get bit, how to counter attacks. The walkers are a threat but they've become mundane.

So I don't see how that sense of dread, of horror, can be maintained. If anyone can die at any moment then I'm just not going to be very invested in my PC. You can of course tun a campaign in several systems that have all the trappings of horror, and other systems are better than D&D for that, but getting people to actually feel the horror? I think that will inevitably wear off.

That missed the mark though.

• Twd characters do not easily recover from injury and fatigue - The same is not true of PC's
• Twd characters have actual dietary needs not met through little more than photosynthesis - PCs?.... Not do much.
• Twd characters need a safe place to rest and engage in any sort of civilization activity like growing crops in a greenhouse or something. - the PCs.... Lol, civilization can burn because they don't actually need anything from it past starting gear
• Twd characters have social needs for sanity - that doesn't really map well to gameplay though
• Twd characters very much want to recover some of the collapsed civilization like electricity running water refrigeration AC etc - PCs previously could sub in magic item churn expectations and similar as an analog but not anymore.
• In Ted the characters mostly stay out of bombed cities and stay far from the massive herds even when doing otherwise would dramatically simplify things if it were an option - those threats don't map well to gameplay at all because the risk is effectively "avoid it or rocks fall everyone dies"

All of the other people are in the same boat on those kinds of things & that's why they choose to be dangerous. It's hard to sell that same boat not enough resources idea when the PCs don't need any of those resources or even the boat. You also get the occasional episode or couple scenes showing details into how those groups are handling their issues but that doesn't really work out in gameplay either

 

[AlViking]

Not necessarily. Predator (the original) is a slasher flick where the victims are heavily armed macho dudes rather than sorority sisters. The effects are pretty much the same though. Horror isn't about being feeble, it's about the fact that all your power you think you have can't overcome the challenge you are facing.

Same with Aliens 2. Doesn't matter if you're a space marine armed to the gills, the enemy can still be deadly.

 

[Mannahnin]

I've seen it formulated that Horror stories/games don't have heroes, they have victims.

In a one shot this can work very well. I have a friend who's run a ton of convention games, for example, where he generally expects that everyone's going to die by the end.

To evoke the feeling of horror in D&D you've got to A) overpower the PCs so the players genuinely feel like they're going to lose and they need to run away or come up with some clever solution which isn't just beating the threat in combat, and/or B ) Evoke a mood of terror by threatening other stuff they care about besides their characters' survival. Be that innocent NPCs, a setting/place, or other resources or ideals or things the PCs care about.

Either one requires active buy-in from the players. If they're sabotaging the mood or will get too frustrated and push back when they're getting their butts kicked or NPCs they care about are getting maimed and suffering, the whole thing will just be an exercise in frustration.

But if you've got cooperative players with vivid imaginations it can work. My old school D&D sessions often have some survival horror vibe. There are a lot of weird and scary and gross things going on. My players often CAN beat stuff in combat, but there's almost always a sense of threat and danger and mystery about monsters' capabilities and nasty things they can do which helps keep the players feeling like their characters are far from safe.

 

[Special Unicorn]

Pure slasher, horror, maybe.

But a lot of horror is about people who are ostensibly high level, fully equipped heroes who have trouble despite having every advantage. In Alien (and a similar Mothership game), the characters are backed by science and tech well beyond our own and still struggle. In Dracula (and many similar Victorian-style RPGs), the characters are high class, wealthy, and have the best manpower and medicine that money can buy and still struggle. In Call of Cthulhu the players have guns, state-of-the art travel and forensics, and still struggle.

The issue in those settings is that the horror-thing (whatever it is) plays by a different set of rules that finds ways to subvert the characters advantages. But critically, the characters still have those advantages, and the horror-thing absolutely must play by some set of rules. This allows the type of narrative where the players are powerful but still forced to be creative. And the enemy isn't easy to take down, but also follows a logic that allows a meaningful conclusion (as opposed to an invulnerable monster that pops up for jump scares in Act 1 and inexplicably dies to the plot in Act 3).

Well, a big part of the problem is that in D&D, it's hard for the players to lose or perma-die.

When there is little fear of death, it's challenging to create an atmopshere of fear.

So, take away the healing potions, leave the cleric back at the tavern, and everyone dies at zero hp with no death saves.

 

[Cruentus]

This is a tough one, as I've tried to run games with horror elements to varying degrees of success.

Your points about Session 0 and buy-in are right on, though I've learned that even what is agreed to by players in Session 0 doesn't always transition through the campaign. I did a Session 0 in 5e, with a Dark Ages feel, lower magic setting campaign - players agreed, then within several sessions all multi classed into spell casters. So much for that.

I've found that slowing the pace sometimes, doing more visceral descriptions (not gore, but the plinking of water, the smell of something odd that gets distant or closer, darkness, and more ambiguity about things that are happening, all rachet up the tension, and I've been successful. Now, all of these are hard to maintain forever, so they have to be interspersed with 'normalcy' so that there is that strong comparison, or feeling of things being 'off'.

I started an Aliens game, where the main character Marshal was going to be going into situations where you'd say "oh, there's gotta be aliens here", but they're just going to be people/bandits/pirates. Then as responding to 'mundane' stuff gets mundane, then things will ramp up a little, but not immediately with the alien (xenomorph) arriving. Might be some other dangerous alien creature, but not the titular character right away. Add in the corporations, militaries, a dash of paranoia, plus the possibility of aliens appearing, then its more tense.

 

[Deset Gled]

Well, a big part of the problem is that in D&D, it's hard for the players to lose or perma-die.

When there is little fear of death, it's challenging to create an atmopshere of fear.

So, take away the healing potions, leave the cleric back at the tavern, and everyone dies at zero hp with no death saves.

Now where have I heard that before...?

Players Are Desensitized

Think of staples of horror like zombies, skeletons, big spiders. These are all things a typical D&D player faces at level 1. Even werewolves and vampires eventually feel relatively mundane. And let's not forget about the effects of having easy healing, Remove Curse, and multiple methods of resurrection.

 

[Mannahnin]

Well, the thing I find is that it's a player issue as people playing Vampire don't want to be scared or disturbed. They want to do the scaring and disturbing. Any attempt to add bits of horror into the game such as just describing the scenes as you might describe scenes from a horror movie, tend to result in players saying they're not having fun. Usually the thing that works best for the horror element is just letting things take their course and the almost inevitable Humanity drop leads them to realize they are indeed becoming the monster. Once I stated that since the character had attacked and drank the blood of a Sabbat that was Tzimisce, they could now learn Vicissitude without needing training. They certainly did not like that idea as a player, as in the end a lot of horror is loss of agency which players do not like even if it is not a serious option.

And that was supposed to be the point of Vampire as a horror game- that loss of control and agency. Your character was embraced against their will, turned into a predator on innocent people who will never enjoy daylight again, and has to deal with Frenzy and Rotschreck mechanics which take control out of the player's hands when their bestial, murderous inner nature takes over. An ever-present threat which will result in an inevitable degeneration and loss of Humanity.

We all know lots of players refused to buy into the premise, but that's a choice on the part of those players.

Best option is to be vague about what is going on. Let the players guess and wonder. Show, don't tell in the storytelling. Zombie or werewolves are just buckets of HPs with known qualities. Desrcibing an attack by people with wounds or hairy beasts and the results without calling out names and being vague enough to them to not know exactly what they are dealing with creates the best mood. In general, mysteries where the players have unknowns to deal with and those are done best through storytelling rather than mechanics.

This is indeed good advice. I've had an encounter with weird tall long-limbed, greenish black-eyed THINGS creeping up on the PCs' camp in the middle of the night go from "holy crap, what are these things?" to visible sighs of relief when I put a Troll mini on the table. You can still have mechanics, but if the players don't know what the hell the thing is, they lack that sense of the KNOWN which detracts from horror. As long as the threat's capabilities and danger level are mysterious, suspense and horror are easier.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, a big part of the problem is that in D&D, it's hard for the players to lose or perma-die.

When there is little fear of death, it's challenging to create an atmopshere of fear.

So, take away the healing potions, leave the cleric back at the tavern, and everyone dies at zero hp with no death saves.

Then don't make death the fail state. Survival horror is just one type of horror. Alienation, corruption, psychological horror, those are fears too. Horror is best when it's not just fear of survival.

Dracula has few direct conflicts. The Count never harms Jonathon Harker yet the solicitor fears for his mind and soul. Lucy's ongoing attacks weaken her suitors as they try to stop a foe they rarely see directly. Later, it's the ongoing corruption of Mina that drives the hunters to find Dracula before it's too late. Dracula never even fights them in the finale.

If you only view horror from the lens of body counts, D&D is a poor fit. That's why you strike at things that hurt them in other ways.

 

[Marc17]

Well, a big part of the problem is that in D&D, it's hard for the players to lose or perma-die.

When there is little fear of death, it's challenging to create an atmopshere of fear.

So, take away the healing potions, leave the cleric back at the tavern, and everyone dies at zero hp with no death saves.

I don't know about that. While I agree that failure is a big issue and death is a usual fail state, there are other possibilities: Loss of agency. Non-Lethal body horror. Just living with the consequences of the actions made of their own free will.