Hot take: Only the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings should be viewed as canonical Middle-Earth books

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
The Silmarillion is a work by Christopher Tolkien, based on his father's work and not actually J.R.R. Tolkien's work.

We know that, throughout his life, JRRT dramatically changed his mind about many elements of the setting -- the orcs, for one, were jerked back and forth creatively a bunch of times. We have no reason to believe that Christopher, four years after his father was dead and buried, was able to make the exact choices his father would have.

And Christopher himself didn't believe that they were 100% canonical: "Complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost." (Page 8 in the Silmarillion.)

This is even more true for the later posthumous works, which include elements that are almost certainly creative dead-ends, like characters that only appear in the History of Middle-earth books and nowhere else. That's a key part of the writing process: Figuring out what to keep and what to discard or at least put on the shelf until a use is found for it.

At best, Christopher was making editorial judgements on what to include and what to exclude and which varying take was the "real" one in all of the books published after his father's death.

It's comparable to "And Another Thing" being viewed as an official Hitchhikers book. Yes, the estate may say it is, but it's not the original's author's voice or intentions. It's a best guess by someone who wants to get it right, but cannot ever truly hope to do so.

I'm a big Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy fan, but I would never confuse A Salmon of Doubt or the fragments in The Frood or the upcoming 42 as being a missing Hitchhikers book or even work that was truly destined to be one. (A Salmon of Doubt makes this point quite explicit, referencing Douglas Adams intending fragments for a Dirk Gently book, no, maybe for a new Hitchhikers book, no, maybe we'll do something else with that at some point.)

JRRT would likely be bemused by the Rings of Power, but he'd almost certainly view Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, The Fall of Gondolin and The Fall of Númenor with at least as much confusion and alarm. "Contradicting" those books is no more important than "contradicting" Brian Herbert's Dune books that he wrote after his father's death.
 

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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Not only do I agree, I don't think that this is a hot take. I think that this should be the proper take.

My take is probably a little hotter- I don't think Hobbit and LoTR is canon. Well, I mean ... sure, it's been written. But I think that most arguments about canon are stupid and counterproductive, because things that are good will be accepted whether or not they take "liberties" or "subvert" or even ignore canon, while things that are bad will be always be bad no matter how faithful they are.

Consistency can be a good thing. Canon is just a term people use to yell at each other.
 

At best, Christopher was making editorial judgements on what to include and what to exclude and which varying take was the "real" one in all of the books published after his father's death.
Towards the end, the joke was that he was publishing stuff from his father's waste basket.
Not only do I agree, I don't think that this is a hot take. I think that this should be the proper take.

My take is probably a little hotter- I don't think Hobbit and LoTR is canon. Well, I mean ... sure, it's been written. But I think that most arguments about canon are stupid and counterproductive, because things that are good will be accepted whether or not they take "liberties" or "subvert" or even ignore canon, while things that are bad will be always be bad no matter how faithful they are.

Consistency can be a good thing. Canon is just a term people use to yell at each other.
Now that's a hot take.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Now that's a hot take.

My dream is to one day host a call-in show for geek culture, and eventually, PTI: D&D.

"Today's topic- Should a Caravan of Courage series be the next Disney+ Star Wars series, or is the original too good for those terrible people at the House of Mouse to touch? We have Kylo Ren calling in from Dorchester to discuss. Caller?"
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Not only do I agree, I don't think that this is a hot take. I think that this should be the proper take.

My take is probably a little hotter- I don't think Hobbit and LoTR is canon. Well, I mean ... sure, it's been written. But I think that most arguments about canon are stupid and counterproductive, because things that are good will be accepted whether or not they take "liberties" or "subvert" or even ignore canon, while things that are bad will be always be bad no matter how faithful they are.

Consistency can be a good thing. Canon is just a term people use to yell at each other.
Dang, Snarf. Carpet-bombing wisdom all over the place like some kind of B-52H Stratofortress of Truth.
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Ryujin

Legend
The Silmarillion is a work by Christopher Tolkien, based on his father's work and not actually J.R.R. Tolkien's work.

We know that, throughout his life, JRRT dramatically changed his mind about many elements of the setting -- the orcs, for one, were jerked back and forth creatively a bunch of times. We have no reason to believe that Christopher, four years after his father was dead and buried, was able to make the exact choices his father would have.

And Christopher himself didn't believe that they were 100% canonical: "Complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost." (Page 8 in the Silmarillion.)

This is even more true for the later posthumous works, which include elements that are almost certainly creative dead-ends, like characters that only appear in the History of Middle-earth books and nowhere else. That's a key part of the writing process: Figuring out what to keep and what to discard or at least put on the shelf until a use is found for it.

At best, Christopher was making editorial judgements on what to include and what to exclude and which varying take was the "real" one in all of the books published after his father's death.

It's comparable to "And Another Thing" being viewed as an official Hitchhikers book. Yes, the estate may say it is, but it's not the original's author's voice or intentions. It's a best guess by someone who wants to get it right, but cannot ever truly hope to do so.

I'm a big Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy fan, but I would never confuse A Salmon of Doubt or the fragments in The Frood or the upcoming 42 as being a missing Hitchhikers book or even work that was truly destined to be one. (A Salmon of Doubt makes this point quite explicit, referencing Douglas Adams intending fragments for a Dirk Gently book, no, maybe for a new Hitchhikers book, no, maybe we'll do something else with that at some point.)

JRRT would likely be bemused by the Rings of Power, but he'd almost certainly view Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, The Fall of Gondolin and The Fall of Númenor with at least as much confusion and alarm. "Contradicting" those books is no more important than "contradicting" Brian Herbert's Dune books that he wrote after his father's death.
Sounds like a plan to me. Where do I sign up?
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
Yeah, outside of Hobbit & LOTR, it's kind of apocryphal, or like most novels based on a movie or tv series: the stuff depicted might be relevant to canon, and can be useful or interesting when analyzing the canon, but ultimately isn't official.
 




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