D&D 5E (2024) How 2024 design interacts with class features and resources (poorly)

[Tigris]

Really if you get down to it the biggest issue with the 2024 rules are the weapon masteries. They slowed down the combat part of the game a lot. The next biggest issue is Inspiration and the numerous ways to reroll d20 checks, this similarly slows down the game.

This is the single best thing, because it increased the floor of martials. They can now do decisions if you want and you are closer to casters without needing to really optimize/multiclass.

 

[Whisper-Kitten]

yes,

for one simple reason, healing is really boring.
all healing spells/effects/features should be Bonus action.

Hey now, healing is fun. What makes it fun is how angry you get at your teammates for making you have to constantly heal them for making poor choices in life. Like when your rogue, who has a whopping 12 AC, decides that he wants to ambush a couple of blackguards. Thamior the cat was not very amused.

 

[Neonchameleon]

For me 5.5 is a clear improvement overall. As neonchameleon said the floor for characters is a lot higher, while some ceiling may be nerfed which is fine. Best example for this is the rogue, who gets now weapon mastery which significantly increases the floor, but cannot any longer do his class feature in their turn + as a reaction which lowers the ceiling.

Point of info: that change was in the playtest but walked back. Rogues can Sneak Attack 1/turn under the 2024 rules.

Also I personally dont see an issue when a ressource gets multiple uses, this means there will be a choice. Thats the same with spell slots. If second wind can only heal you, then there is never a choice involved, you use it as soon as you lost some health. Now maybe you want to use it at a different time to also use the movement.

Definitely agreed.

 

[Tigris]

Point of info: that change was in the playtest but walked back. Rogues can Sneak Attack 1/turn under the 2024 rules.

Oh! I missed that, and a friend of mine as well, since we recently did discuss this. Good to know thank youè

 

[rabirin]

For me 5.5 is a clear improvement overall. As neonchameleon said the floor for characters is a lot higher, while some ceiling may be nerfed which is fine. Best example for this is the rogue, who gets now weapon mastery which significantly increases the floor, but cannot any longer do his class feature in their turn + as a reaction which lowers the ceiling.


Also I personally dont see an issue when a ressource gets multiple uses, this means there will be a choice. Thats the same with spell slots. If second wind can only heal you, then there is never a choice involved, you use it as soon as you lost some health. Now maybe you want to use it at a different time to also use the movement.

Weapon Mastery does very little for the Rogue because their damage output was always about one large hit, and they already had various means to gain advantage. Weapon Mastery is much more of a boost to other martials, most of whom get powerful skill features that encroach on the Rogue's specialty, and their new feature forces them to sacrifice damage output when they're already proportionally worse attackers in 2024.

(And no, nothing in the 2024 rules prohibit Sneak Attack on a reaction. Thief Rogues get a way to set up trivial off-turn Sneak Attacks, and the Zhentarum feats are geared specifically towards optimizing off-turn Sneak Attacks.)

Let's take Second Wind and Tactical Shift, as a good example. Do you need healing but don't want to or can't move? Then you're wasting Tactical Shift. Need the extra movement but at full HP? Then you're wasting the healing from Second Wind.

Unless you're making use of both parts at the same time, you're effectively wasting a resource when you use it. Instead of using your Second Wind when you need to heal, you're now incentivized to use it when you need to heal and you need to move.

 

[rabirin]

This is the single best thing, because it increased the floor of martials. They can now do decisions if you want and you are closer to casters without needing to really optimize/multiclass.

A martial who uses Sap, Slow, even Graze or Push, is getting nowhere near the same DPR increase out of Weapon Mastery as Cleave or Nick. The floor between a Sap or Slow user versus a Vex/Nick user, especially when Dual Wielder or PAM/GWM come into play, is a difference of several storeys.

 

[Tigris]

Weapon Mastery does very little for the Rogue because their damage output was always about one large hit, and they already had various means to gain advantage. Weapon Mastery is much more of a boost to other martials, most of whom get powerful skill features that encroach on the Rogue's specialty, and their new feature forces them to sacrifice damage output when they're already proportionally worse attackers in 2024.

Every class should get good things to do outside combat. Skills being "the rogues thing" is just a bad design relic from the past.

Getting an option to "sacrifice" damage to get other effects gives choice, which rogue lacked before, so again good feature.

(And no, nothing in the 2024 rules prohibit Sneak Attack on a reaction. Thief Rogues get a way to set up trivial off-turn Sneak Attacks, and the Zhentarum feats are geared specifically towards optimizing off-turn Sneak Attacks.)

Yeah sorry got that wrong... had the playtest in mind.

Let's take Second Wind and Tactical Shift, as a good example. Do you need healing but don't want to or can't move? Then you're wasting Tactical Shift. Need the extra movement but at full HP? Then you're wasting the healing from Second Wind.

Unless you're making use of both parts at the same time, you're effectively wasting a resource when you use it. Instead of using your Second Wind when you need to heal, you're now incentivized to use it when you need to heal and you need to move.

So you now have to make a choice. Thats good gamedesign.


Also getting movement even though you do not need it, can still allow some repositioning which brings more mivement into combat which in 5e is often lacking so also good design.


Its like a spell slot. You can either teleport or heal. Here you just get the bonus that sometimes, if you plan well, you can use both!


If you shoot a spell on an enemy which slows them down and does damage, the slow down is also wasted if the enemy is killed by the attack, so what?

 

[Gladius Legis]

Really if you get down to it the biggest issue with the 2024 rules are the weapon masteries. They slowed down the combat part of the game a lot. The next biggest issue is Inspiration and the numerous ways to reroll d20 checks, this similarly slows down the game.

IMX, this only happened the first couple sessions after switching to 5.5. Once my group got used to them and remembered what their effects are and to apply them every time, combat has honestly been flowing along as quickly as 5.0 ever did.

 

[Gladius Legis]

A martial who uses Sap, Slow, even Graze or Push, is getting nowhere near the same DPR increase out of Weapon Mastery as Cleave or Nick. The floor between a Sap or Slow user versus a Vex/Nick user is a difference of several storeys.

Cleave only ups your DPR if there's another enemy within 5 feet of the one you attacked. And it's never a single-target DPR increase that would help you kill your primary target faster.

Nick is there to actually make dual wielding viable for multiple classes this time around. Because in 5.0 the only classes who got any real value out of dual wielding were Rogues and Paladins. Dual-wielders of other classes all did substantially inferior damage to great weapons in 5.0. Even in 5.5 great weapons come out ahead in most cases, but Nick ensures the gap isn't nearly as large.

In either case, Sap and Slow are absolutely not "several stories" worse. They just have different purposes. Sap is a solid buff to defense; even against enemies with multiple attacks putting disadvantage on one of those attacks is still pretty substantial for something you apply at-will. And Slow can also prevent enemies from reaching your backliners.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One of 3rd edition's problems that grew apparent as it and the 3.5 edition chugged along was that while the game doesn't exist for optimization, the power levels of classes do affect you.

It is mostly a question of scale and gap. 3.5 grew to be hated when a druid's pet was more effective than a literal Fighter character.

Do I think 5.5 is at that point? No. Do I think 5.5 is more genuinely unbalanced between options than 5e is? Yes.

All this talk of dual-wielding and sword-and-board paladins ignores that no one even brings up a paladin in 5.5 using polearm mastery ever. It's so obviously throwing it is not even mentioned, when the feat was quite powerful for the class in normal 5e.

So in a thread about bad, counter-working design in classes, Paladins got their knees shot out and I wanted to point it out. That is a bad thing, and why I call it pseudo-ivory tower. If two players pick random characters, you should not be completely overshadowed by your mate who also just chose what sounded cool. Makes the game unfun to play at the table, where it actually matters.

I didn't think that was a controversial opinion

3.5 was literally built for optimization.

It is a perfect illustration of my point.