D&D 5E (2024) How 2024 design interacts with class features and resources (poorly)

[ECMO3]

Matches my experience. Which is that the difference between prepared and unprepared players can be stark especially at high levels, and that martials are much more likely to be prepared due to fewer options.

So IME the single biggest difficulty for players to follow in either 5E or 5.5E is the two weapon fighting damage (aka the light weapon damage in 5.5E). Players can not grasp adding your strength or dex on one damage roll and then not adding it on another. Nick did not improve this, but only added an additional layer of complexity (why can't I use nick after I attack with my Rapier since it is a Finesse Weapon).

It would seem that is simple, but it is fumbled far more often than spells or any other single mechanic IME.

 

[Mort]

Topple alone is literally twice as many rolls as it is without the mastery, Vex is nearly twice as many rolls, Sap is one or more every turn on the guy you hits turn turn. Push is used for things like pushing enemies into spirit guardians and then there a save for that.

Topple is just a variation on knocking prone. Sap and vex are disadvantage/advantage which is rolled right along with the regular roll. These are all very quick things.

Then you have things like Heroic Warrior, getting extra movement every time you use Second Wind (in addition to using it more often), Monks doing more attacks, Rogues throwing save effects on their sneak attacks (in addition to making sneak attacks with a Truestrike bonus action)

I don't see how the time PCs spend in combat can be unchanged when you are doing a lot more in combat and rolling a lot more dice.

But these are all interesting things that, for me (and my group), add fun and value to the game. So it's not a lag or even a slow down, though I certainly haven't seen any doubling. Point is, yes martials have a few more options, sure - I actually see that as a good thing.

I don't play at high level with unprepared players and anyone who plays a 1-high level campaign should be pretty experienced by the end of it as we are talking about well over 50 hours of play.

Spell casters were sped up quite a bit in 5.5E by how they simplified spells. 5.5 spells are much more straightforward with little variation. For example, Tashas Laughter and Command now affect everything, no more checking Intelligence or if a Creature knows a Language. There are no more spells that "summon 8 allies that all get their own turn" and the spells that still do summon an ally use a specific stat block, so there is no searching the Monster Manual for a stat block.

It's still high level casting with decision, placement and, often, multiple saving throws. And if you have prepared casters, you also have prepared martials.

 

[ECMO3]

Topple is just a variation on knocking prone. Sap and vex are disadvantage/advantage which is rolled right along with the regular roll. These are all very quick things.

No it isn't. It is twice as much (and in addition there is no size limit)

If I have a 20th level fighter in 5E I can either attack with a weapon 4 times or I can try to knock an enemy prone 4 times or mix and match between the two but I only get 4 "things" out of my attack action. If I try to knock an enemy prone I don't get to do a weapon attack ... In 5.5E I can do both every time I hit (and if I am a Champion reroll if I miss) and once I knock him prone me and all my allies are rolling twice for every single attack against him due to advantage or disadvantage.

But these are all interesting things that, for me (and my group), add fun and value to the game. So it's not a lag or even a slow down, though I certainly haven't seen any doubling. Point is, yes martials have a few more options, sure - I actually see that as a good thing.

I agree it adds fun and value for many players, but it is inconceivable that a PC can do more things, take more actions, more movement, make more attacks and roll more dice and not take more time.

It may not be a "drag" for you or your group and maybe you have not noticed, but it is has to take longer. You are doing far more things every turn in combat.

It's still high level casting with decision, placement and, often, multiple saving throws. And if you have prepared casters, you also have prepared martials.

Sure, but it is not nearly as many rolls over the course of a combat. There may be a ton of rolls when a caster casts Fireball or Cone of Cold or Hypnotic Pattern but those are one time and usually even when they use one of those spells it is not much more than the fighter is going to make or cause others to make on one attack action and they are not doing as much with it. Spells like Yolanda's Presence or Spirit Guardians can cause rolls for multiple enemies turn after turn, but most spells don't.

I cast Fireball and those 5 guys save and then there is one big damage roll and they either take full or half. It is not I attack this guy, roll damage against him, make him roll to go prone, then I use second wind roll to regain hit points, and move over here and attack this other guy and then roll a different damage number against him and make him roll to go prone, then since he is already prone I Sap him and roll damage a third time and then finally I try to grapple him to hold him down so he can't get up. That is more or less a typical Fighter turn at 20th level and it is happening over and over again except when they action surge and then it is even more they are doing.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Vex is more rolls. Sap is one more roll for every guy you hit.

This tells me a lot about the organisation of your group; if you are rolling with Advantage/Disadvantage you don't normally roll the two dice separately - instead you roll the two dice at the same time. The physical time needed to do that is almost unchanged and checking which dice rolls higher takes almost no time. It's not "one more roll", it's "one more dice in the pool" and you don't even have to add it to the total.

Spell casters were sped up quite a bit in 5.5E by how they simplified spells. 5.5 spells are much more straightforward with little variation or rules complications. For example, Tashas Laughter and Command now affect everything, no more checking Intelligence or if a creature knows a Language. There are no more spells that "summon 8 allies that all get their own turn" and the spells that still do summon one ally use a specific bespoke stat block, so there is no searching the Monster Manual for a stat block.

And they are still significantly slower than martials, especially ones that roll the two dice separately for advantage and disadvantage.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Yeah Masteries have not added any notable delays to my game

 

[ECMO3]

And they are still significantly slower than martials, especially ones that roll the two dice separately for advantage and disadvantage.

Not at high level they aren't. My experience spans multiple groups and all of them have seen a large increase in the time it takes high level martials, especially Monks and Fighters.

Masteries are part of it, but not all of it, the class changes are a big part too.

If your game is one where a players turn starts and they talk back and forth amongst themselves about what they should do, change their mind, ask the DM for a clarification, and then do their thing, then sure maybe casters take more time. But I don't play with groups like that, and when it comes to actually doing your turn: i.e. move-action-bonus action, narrating what is happening and rolling the dice to mechanically execute it, it martials take substantially longer than casters at high levels most of the time in 5.5E.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah Masteries have no added any notable delays to my game

Then you aren't using them to their fullest. If you are making more attacks, rolling more dice (even if you pick them up at the same time), making more decisions and doing and narrating more "things" on your turn it will take more time than if you were not doing that.

Heck, the time it takes a player to decide whether they want to Sap, Push, Slow or something else is not insignificant and they are doing that 4 (or more) times a turn on a 20th level fighter.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Then you aren't using them to their fullest.

Heck, the time it takes a player to decide whether they want to Sap, Push, Slow or something else is not insignificant and they are doing that 4 (or more) times a turn on a 20th level fighter.

Our level 13 fighter largely just keeps to Topple from his Hammer of Thunderbolts Maul, and uses Sap if they are already toppled generally.
He for sure doesn't agonize over them, like that.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Not at high level they aren't. My experience spans multiple groups and all of them have seen a large increase in the time it takes high level martials, especially Monks and Fighters.

Masteries are part of it, but not all of it, the class changes are a big part too.

You aren't the only person with experience. And in your experience Advantage slows things down significantly. And monks only went up a damage die size and from four attacks to five - the first should cause basically no slowdown and the second very little.

All I can say is your martials are ... unusual

 

[ECMO3]

Our level 13 fighter largely just keeps to Topple from his Hammer of Thunderbolts Maul, and uses Sap if they are already toppled generally.

Ok so like I said you are not using masteries to their fullest.