How defensive can you get?

[Cyraneth]

I was perusing my PHB today, when I stopped at the feats chapter... After having read the Expertise feat again, I wondered if you can use both the Expertise feat and fight defensively in the same round. The "normal" section of the feat really doesn't elaborate on it, and if you can't, what about the bonus to defensive fighting for having enough ranks in Tumble?

 

[Greybar]

Sounds fine to me. Good way to hold back the hordes and buy time for the cavalry to arrive.

Also useful if you wanted to make an essentially non-violent character who only would defend themselves. Take Expertise and go to Total Defense when forced into combat.

John

 

[Cyraneth]

Sure. Sounds fine to me too, but can you? I mean, does or doesn't Expertise replace defensive fighting? Or can you only either and not both? Or is it actually possible to use both simultaneously?

 

[Dash Dannigan]

The official WotC word on that one is "yes", expertise and fighting defensively stack. You'll find this in the main D&D FAQ on their website: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20021018a

 

[IceBear]

Here are the relevant quotes from the SRD:

Do I have to make an attack to use the Expertise feat to
improve my Armor Class?

No, you don’t have to attack, but you do have to choose the
attack or full attack action. That is, you can declare an attack or
full attack, claim the Armor Class bonus, and then not make the
attacks to which you are entitled. You cannot use Expertise
with the total defense action or any other action except attack
or full attack.

and

My group is having some difficulty with the Expertise
feat. What happens when you use Expertise along with
Two-Weapon Fighting? Do you get the Armor Class bonus
from Expertise once for each weapon? Once for each
attack? What if you use the total defense option or the fight
defensively option? (Or is Expertise just another way of
fighting defensively?) If you have 5 or more ranks in the
Tumble skill, you get a bonus to defensive fighting or total
defense. How does that work with Expertise?

Any attack bonus you devote to defense with the Expertise
feat (up to your base attack bonus or +5, whichever is lower)
applies as a penalty on all the attacks you make until it’s your
turn again—including attacks of opportunity. You get the
defense bonus only once, no matter how many attacks you
make or how many weapons you use. (It, too, remains until it’s
your turn again.) For example, a 9th-level fighter with a base
attack bonus of +9/+4 has Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting,
and Ambidexterity. If the character uses a light weapon in her
off hand, she’ll get 3 attacks, each at a –2 penalty: +7/+2 with
her primary hand and an extra attack with her off hand at +7. If
the character claims a +2 bonus to Armor Class from Expertise,
her attack bonuses become +5/+0 and +5.
You can fight defensively only when you use the full attack
action or attack action (see page 124 of the Player’s
Handbook), but if you do, you can use Expertise along with it.
(Because fighting defensively is mentioned in the Expertise
feat description on page 82 of the Player’s Handbook, some
people think Expertise is just a better way of fighting
defensively, but that’s not true.) When you use Expertise and
defensive fighting together, you simply add up all the Armor
Class bonuses and attack penalties. Note that both Expertise
and defensive fighting provide dodge bonuses to Armor Class.
Dodge bonuses, unlike most other bonuses in the game, stack
(see page 119 in the Player’s Handbook). If the character in the
previous example decided to fight defensively, she would add
another +2 bonus to Armor Class (for a total of +4) and an
extra –4 attack penalty, which would lessen her attacks to +1/–
4 and +1. The combination of Expertise and defensive fighting
isn’t very efficient.
If the character in the example also had 5 or more ranks in
the Tumble skill, her dodge bonus from fighting defensively
would be +3 instead of +2, and her total Armor Class bonus
would be +5.
Since Expertise is not the same as fighting defensively, your
Tumble ranks don’t help you when you use Expertise without
also fighting defensively.

IceBear

 

[Kyramus]

add tower shield for good measure.

 

[RigaMortus]

Take Expertise and go to Total Defense when forced into combat.

John

If you are suggesting you can use Total Defense and Expertise at the same time, I don't think you can. If not, sorry if I misread you

 

[Saepiroth]

If you are suggesting you can use Total Defense and Expertise at the same time, I don't think you can. If not, sorry if I misread you

ah... haste + Total Defense + partial action used to activate +5 expertise. add 15 ranks of Tumble to the mix, and BAM! +13 AC.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why 15 and not 5? My PHB says 5 ranks in Tumble bumps your Total Defence from +4 to +6. Those same five ranks bump your Fight Defensively bonus from +2 to +3.

So with Haste, you can use Total Defence as your standard action for a +6 dodge bonus, then with your partial action make an attack action using Fight Defensively for a +3 dodge bonus (and dodge bonuses stack) with Expertise for a +5 dodge bonus, for a total of +14. (And Haste gives +4 AC as well...)

-Hyp.

 

[Saepiroth]

OA's adapted Tumble rules say that +15 ranks in tumble increase dodge bonuses yet again, to x2 their normal value (more than the x1.5 bonus provided by 5 ranks).

OA has stuff that makes it the pimpbook to end all pimpbooks.

so... using your plan... (character is hasted)
Full round action; Total Defense (+8 AC). Partial action; dismissed attack action to activate Fight Defensively (+4 AC) and Expertise -5 (+5 AC).

total of... +17 AC, all universally stacking dodge bonuses. pimpitude!