D&D 5E How do you GM 4 of the 6 parts of ability checks

[Manbearcat]

The primary agenda of play in 5e is described in several places in the Basic PDF and the core books. Repeatedly, you get one iteration or another of:

"...to create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils."

GMs role is described as:

"lead storyteller and referee."

Got it. Ok.

The procedure for running noncombat action entails 6 steps:

1) Describe the situation.

Straight forward enough. Although there is some subtle nuance here regarding telegraphing, I'm not interested in 1.

2) Consider the player's action declaration and determine if the outcome is uncertain. If not, just say yes and proceed back to 1. If no, proceed to 3.

How do you determine if the outcome is uncertain?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

3) Decide which ability score applies for the task at hand and establish a (target number) difficulty class. The more difficult the task the higher its DC.

How do you determine if the difficulty of the task?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

4) Decide of a skill applies to the actions resolution.

Straight forward enough. Again, some nuance, but not interested in this one.

5) Decide if (circumstantial - not PC build-driven) Advantage or Disadvantage applies.

How do you determine if Advantage or Disadvantage applies?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

6) Describe how the post-resolution situation changes.

If the result is a failure, how do you determine how the post-resolution situation changes?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

---

Alright. I'm mostly curious about system here. So, if GMs who are interested in answering could frame their answers around system-driven instruction, that would be helpful. For instance, failure in the Basic PDF talks about "fail forward." Failure in the PHB talks about "no progress" or "success combined with a setback". The DMG talks about "conflict and stress" when deciding whether an outcome is uncertain.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Satyrn]

Can I go with a third, unwritten option for all those? I think I use casual logic.

That is, I just use whatever feels right at the time, whatever comes to mind that I hour is the most fun for the players. Also I don't really do the fail forward thing very well because of that lack of thought I put into it.

Also, if this post isn't as helpful as it ought to be, that's because I don't really know what you mean by genre/drama/causal logic in this context, and I'm just winging my answer the way I handle adjudication in game. My post itself is an example!

 

[Satyrn]

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yep. Some clarification by what you term Genre/Drama logic compared to Causal logic would be handy just to make sure we're on the same page.

 

[Manbearcat]

Clarification:

Genre/drama logic: Informed by the idea that the PCs are protagonists and the need for thematically-relevant or conflict-charged content for the players to engage with.

Causal Logic: Tight relationship of cause and effect informed by the GMs mental model of how stuff happens and how people work in the real world.

 

[iserith]

Clarification:

Genre/drama logic: Informed by the idea that the PCs are protagonists and the need for thematically-relevant or conflict-charged content for the players to engage with.

Causal Logic: Tight relationship of cause and effect informed by the GMs mental model of how stuff happens and how people work in the real world.

A little from Column A, a little from Column B - whatever seems most appropriate to achieving the goals of play (everyone having fun and creating an exciting, memorable story) in that moment. The DMG leaves it wide open on this score, I believe, with the only guide being on page 237, wherein it tasks the DM with deciding whether the task is impossible or inappropriate or so easy and free of stress that success is a given. For any task in between, a check might be appropriate.

I wrote a guide on adjudicating actions a while back.

 

[Manbearcat]

A little from Column A, a little from Column B - whatever seems most appropriate to achieving the goals of play (everyone having fun and creating an exciting, memorable story) in that moment. The DMG leaves it wide open on this score, I believe, with the only guide being on page 237, wherein it tasks the DM with deciding whether the task is impossible or inappropriate or so easy and free of stress that success is a given. For any task in between, a check might be appropriate.

I wrote a guide on adjudicating actions a while back.

Hokey dokey.

Just a quick FYI. I didn't create this thread so I could challenge folks on anything. Just genuinely curious and I figured that, due to the finesse and art involved in handling noncombat framing/adjudication/resolution, it might be helpful for 5e GMs to clarify their own thinking.

So I likely won't be engaging much. Mostly observing.

 

[Nagol]

The primary agenda of play in 5e is described in several places in the Basic PDF and the core books. Repeatedly, you get one iteration or another of:

<snip>

2) Consider the player's action declaration and determine if the outcome is uncertain. If not, just say yes and proceed back to 1. If no, proceed to 3.

How do you determine if the outcome is uncertain?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

In a good system (good in this case refers to the system's ability to generate/handle genre-appropriate situations and actions) there is little tension between causal and genre logic. If there is tension, it is a sign I chose the wrong system for the game. There can still be tension regarding dramatic logic, but in this case, I lean on the causal/genre logic and let players play out the drama with the tools at their disposal.

An outcome is uncertain if the declaration is hindered sufficiently by the environment such that both success and failure appear possible (the random factor has meaning) and consequential (such as time pressure, others may react, or the base situation is inflicting an effect).

3) Decide which ability score applies for the task at hand and establish a (target number) difficulty class. The more difficult the task the higher its DC.

How do you determine if the difficulty of the task?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

Again, in a good match between system and genre, the tension between causal and genre is limited. My typical method of difficulty determination is precedent. Published DCs form the basis and variations the PCs encounter over the course of their career inform future DCs. If I decide to run a system outside its typical genre (5e for a swashbuckling Musketeer style game, for example), I'll create an initial set of DCs that cover typical genre tropes not found in the base ruleset (such as using a chandelier as a charge vector, attacking leather harnesses, and dueling while sliding down bannisters) and share them with the players so the group is on the same page as to the genre expectations in play.

<snip>

5) Decide if (circumstantial - not PC build-driven) Advantage or Disadvantage applies.

How do you determine if Advantage or Disadvantage applies?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

The DMG talks primarily about causal relationship to Advantage/Disadvantage. with "temporary circumstances", "circumstances not related to the creature's inherent capabilities", "some aspect of the environment" and "previous actions... improve chance of success". Dramatic logic are covered by player choice of using/generating inspiration and/or actively adjusting the situation as above. I tend to change "circumstances not related to the creature's inherent capabilities" to "circumstances specifically supporting/hindering a creature's inherent capabilities". After all, most circumstances are not related to a creature's inherent capabilities.

6) Describe how the post-resolution situation changes.

If the result is a failure, how do you determine how the post-resolution situation changes?

Genre/Drama Logic

or

Causal Logic

Most times failure resolution is straight-forward. If you failed to climb out of the flaming pit, you are still in the pit taking fire damage. In those cases where the result is not straight-forward, the players negotiated/were told the failure stakes as part of the ability check set up. Most times an ability check is made to change the situation. If the check fails, the situation remains status quo in much the same way a failed roll to hit an opponent doesn't give it new abilities. If there is a change on failure, the players know (or could know if the situation has exploratory elements) the broad outlines of that risk before the roll.

The consequences are driven directly by the consequential nature of the roll (see step 2). If I have what I think is a neat trade-off, I'll offer it to the player in the case of failure (missed climbing out the pit by 1? You can either fail OR make it out of the pit but lose the backpack in a final desperate scramble as you see you are going to come up short) -- the success at cost discussion in the DMG. The costs are offered to the player, not imposed. In those rare times where I have been a player and success at a cost has been imposed, I often preferred outright failure to the DM's cost. Also the costs are directly attributable to the situation and generally causal to success. "You knew in an instant the only way to get the last two inches would be to sacrifice the backpack and jump."

 

[Jester David]

Depends on the campaign's genre.

If the genre of story is one where genre logic and casual logic are the same then go with that.
If genre logic is wildly different and they should succeed, then genre logic.
If they *could* fail and failure would make the story just as fun and compelling as succeeding, then casual.

I don't tend to have this internal debate, since I tend to either have heroic campaigns where I default to genre, or lower power Everyman games where I go casual.

 

[Satyrn]

Clarification:

Genre/drama logic: Informed by the idea that the PCs are protagonists and the need for thematically-relevant or conflict-charged content for the players to engage with.

Causal Logic: Tight relationship of cause and effect informed by the GMs mental model of how stuff happens and how people work in the real world.

Ah, okay. I guess I can provide a slightly more useful answer than my first one. I use genre logic through and through.

Specifically, it's Xena: Warrior Princess logic. That show is my Platonic Ideal. All my decisions should lead my session to look as much like an episode of Xena as possible.