How much is a Good Hit Die worth?

[AdamBank]

When working out a new class, how much is a good hit die worth?
For example, what do you think would be a "good trade" for bumping a fighter's hit die down from d10 to d8? More skills only? More skills + magic? Or for another example, what would make a rogue-mod balanced if you bumped the class's hit die from d6 to d8? What would you take away?

Is it even possible (or recommendable) to revese engineer classes like this?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Hit dice are one of the key mechanics that define a class imo.

Lowering a fighters HD would impact greatly on the fighters role, I would balance it with an improved save, probably reflex. But that is not enough. I think giving another 2 skill points or 1 skill point and a slightly better class list.

Increasing the rogues HD to d8, I would trim their skills by 3 and postpone evasion a couple of levels, being they are bulking up. I would not touch sneak attack, saves or BAB.

I don't know if this is recommendable, but I usually get someone wanting to fiddle with their class so I do it anyway. Best to be too tough and lighten up rather than too generous and have to take away. Gets players moody when that happens.

 

[kreynolds]

Adam. Go here. They have a nice little class calculator.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would argue that a good hit die is actually quite a low differentiator in real life.

You see, the good hit die is only a *potential* benefit. A case in point is the fighter in my current campaign who has d10 for her HD, but at 9th level only has 49 hp because her average hp roll each level has been about 4... even with her small CON bonus, this really isn't many hp, and the 9th level sorcerer has nearly as many hp as she has!

The Barbarian d12 HD is actually only better than the fighters d10 on the few occasions when you roll an 11 or 12... admittedly the average over a lot of levels is one point better (6.5 vs 5.5), but at 10th level, how much difference does 10hp make (on average).

BAB, Saving throw bonuses, almost everything else is a real, solid benefit which is always the same "value". The HD size is a potential only, since someone could roll all 1's on his d10s, and end up with appalling hp.

In a way, the idea of rolled hp is one of the oldest sacred cows, but is as bad for imbalance between PC's as rolling for attributes can be. I wonder if campaigns which use point buy also tend to use static values for hp based upon HD size?

Cheers

 

[kreynolds]

I wonder if campaigns which use point buy also tend to use static values for hp based upon HD size?

I do (75% max die).

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I think that HD/hit points are too often underrated. One of the things that really turned me off Monte's ranger was the d8.

Can't stand the monk for its 3/4 BAB and d8 HD. Shakes head

 

[Stalker0]

A downgrade of a hD is basically an hp per level. That's basically half the value of a -2 Con (since doesn't effect fort saves). What do you think is an appropriate bonus to compensate?

Hell somepeople make toughness to give one more hp per level. All in all, I don't think the HD makes that big of a difference.

 

[CRGreathouse]

For example, what do you think would be a "good trade" for bumping a fighter's hit die down from d10 to d8? More skills only? More skills + magic? Or for another example, what would make a rogue-mod balanced if you bumped the class's hit die from d6 to d8? What would you take away?

I'd give the fighter a good Reflex save and *one* extra class skill, as long as the skill wasn't restricted, Spot, Listen, or Tumble. Alternatively, I'd give one more skill point per level and two more class skills (subject to the same restriction). If they wanted magic, I'd let them advance as a bard once per three levels (1st level spells at 6th level, assuming Cha 12+), if I could find any good way to explain the ability.

I'd change to rogue's sneak attack to every even level and either take away one skill point per level or drop Uncanny Dodge.

 

[Destil]

In a way, the idea of rolled hp is one of the oldest sacred cows, but is as bad for imbalance between PC's as rolling for attributes can be. I wonder if campaigns which use point buy also tend to use static values for hp based upon HD size?

I do average +1. Been thinking about +1 on odd numbered levels and +0 on even, since that's a bit more accurate, statistacly, but don't want to drop the PCs HP in my current game. Most likely next time, though.

 

[Gez]

I do a secret DM roll for my players' characters' HD. If they're unhappy with their own result, they can get mine, which will usually be better if they were unhappy with their result (below average) to begin with.

If you have a bad-luck correcting system like myself, a good HD is more worthy than otherwise.