D&D General How should the power budget be distributed between class, dubclass, race, background (and other points)

[CreamCloud0]

more feat slots and then you can spend those feats on improving your racial features.

...i don't object to more feats but i don't think they're the solution to everything, also personally i'd prefer if species and class budget were kept separate rather than competing over shared resources.

 

[Corinnguard]

more feat slots and then you can spend those feats on improving your racial features.

5e could always bring back the Racial Paragon classes or the Racial Substitution levels from 3e. The first would require a bit of multiclassing between your class levels and your racial paragon levels, but since the latter is composed of three levels, it wouldn't be no different than a 3-level dip anyway. As for the latter, WoTC would need to invent more of them.

 

[Horwath]

5e could always bring back the Racial Paragon classes or the Racial Substitution levels from 3e. The first would require a bit of multiclassing between your class levels and your racial paragon levels, but since the latter is composed of three levels, it wouldn't be no different than a 3-level dip anyway. As for the latter, WoTC would need to invent more of them.

racial paragon were always hit and miss and were prone to mix maxing as the clearly favored a single play type, except human OFC

 

[tetrasodium]

...i don't object to more feats but i don't think they're the solution to everything, also personally i'd prefer if species and class budget were kept separate rather than competing over shared resources.

This is correct but too many pieces are missing that wotc needs to be the one supplying.Take your own point about racial flight

the biggest example of this in my mind is species flight, at early levels it is disproportionately powerful and able to solve low level challenges or you get something like the dragonborn's stupid energy wings they sprout instead of having real ones.

Back in 3.5 there were flight maneuverability ratings and a ton of monstrous feats that could improve flight maneuverability ratings. I went back looking for one that would give a flight capable monster or PC the equivalent rating that having any source of flight in 5e and simply could not find one that grants perfect maneuverability flight. Sure there were a few that would grant an improved step in maneuverability ratings, but other than the not easy to get with flight hover it was just considered too broken to allow PCs and monsters to gain by feat the level of flight granted to first level flight capable PCs in 5e and they can do it at maximums carrying capacity or more with a speed penalty now.

Restoring those kinds of obvious omissions torn from the rules like maneuverability ratings nonlinear carrying capacity etc extends far beyond what a gm could reasonably be expected to patch in, moving base cite ability functionality to growth through feats absent the missing mechanics doesn't fix things either.

 

[Corinnguard]

Pathfinder 1st edition handled racial flight by coming up with a Fly skill. If your species had wings, then they were automatically proficient in this skill.

Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

 

[tetrasodium]

Pathfinder 1st edition handled racial flight by coming up with a Fly skill. If your species had wings, then they were automatically proficient in this skill.

Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

It didn't work like 5e flight though

Spoiler: from that link

You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees1, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart

The 5e racial flight is more like the of equivalent of having +20 or more to the flight skill as a racial perk

 

[Tigris]

...i don't object to more feats but i don't think they're the solution to everything, also personally i'd prefer if species and class budget were kept separate rather than competing over shared resources.

Being able to choose how much power you get from the race (like in 4e with many feats) can be interesting but its also hard to balance and also requires lot of work per race. And depending on how many feats the class really needs it may be too much of a competition.


Pathfinder 2 has specific racial feats on top of normal feats but they feel soo weak and also just adds to the "too much feats" feeling as well.



I think having races with features which just (automatically) scale well is the better solution.

For flight races one could have more limitations on level 1 which later go away. (Like only max height 1, no carry potential, etc).

Other features could also often be things which scale automatically to some degree. Like a minor action basic attack. Or teleport which scales the range slightly etc.

 

[CreamCloud0]

This is correct but too many pieces are missing that wotc needs to be the one supplying.Take your own point about racial flight

Back in 3.5 there were flight maneuverability ratings and a ton of monstrous feats that could improve flight maneuverability ratings. I went back looking for one that would give a flight capable monster or PC the equivalent rating that having any source of flight in 5e and simply could not find one that grants perfect maneuverability flight. Sure there were a few that would grant an improved step in maneuverability ratings, but other than the not easy to get with flight hover it was just considered too broken to allow PCs and monsters to gain by feat the level of flight granted to first level flight capable PCs in 5e and they can do it at maximums carrying capacity or more with a speed penalty now.

Restoring those kinds of obvious omissions torn from the rules like maneuverability ratings nonlinear carrying capacity etc extends far beyond what a gm could reasonably be expected to patch in, moving base cite ability functionality to growth through feats absent the missing mechanics doesn't fix things either.

i think i've gotten a bit lost here, this is far more complex a system than i think really needs implementing, 5e flight is 5e flight and is fine and doesn't need comparing to previous edition's flight rules it just needs postponing a few levels if it's going to be given as a species ability.

all i'm saying is it could benefit from a 'pre-flight' ability that captures the essence of flight to apply at lower levels, the Hadozee were introduced with a glide ability so it's obviously possible, riff something off that so you can have winged creatures with aerial mobility that isn't just full on omnidirectional movement at 1st.

 

[Horwath]

Pathfinder 1st edition handled racial flight by coming up with a Fly skill. If your species had wings, then they were automatically proficient in this skill.

Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

this could be tied to Athletics and/or Acrobatics


have 5 levels of flight for natural(or magical) fly speed

each proficiency and expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics give one level.
natural talent can give 0,1 or 2 levels of flight.
Fly spell can IE; give 3 levels.

 

[Corinnguard]

this could be tied to Athletics and/or Acrobatics

I would go with Acrobatics because of the maneuverability in both acrobatics and flight.