How to challenge a defensive party?

[VCSP]

I'm DMing to a party defensively optimized, composed of two str paladins, one con swordmage and cha warlord.

The encounters extends for several rounds and are boring. The pcs almost never are hit and when are, they can recover or ignore part of the damage. They have a lot of difficult to kill the monsters, 'cause them, except for one of the paladins, inflicting low damage with their attacks.

I tryed to put some monsters that attack their lower defenses, but they complain when it happens. I think they don't mind having only easy fights, but this is getting very boring to me!

Do you have any suggestions to solve this problem?

I've thought to reduce the HP of the monsters and maximize the damage they cause, but I'm not sure about this. And put monsters higher level than the group, it would be really a solution?

Edit: I usually build encounters of the party level or level +1, and the "boss battle" of the level +3 or +4.

 

[chitzk0i]

I tryed to put some monsters that attack their lower defenses, but they complain when it happens.

a) Monsters with damage auras. Who cares about AC when the damage is automatic?

b) How much complaining? Is it a friendly, "Ow, my 11 reflex!" or are they harassing and bullying you into making the game less fun for you?

 

[Turtlejay]

This problem is (aside from a poorly built party) that you as the DM should not allow yourself to be bullied into running a cheap and easy version of the game you want to run.

If they party is having an easy time of things, you need to ratchet things up a bit. Enemies that lurk and strike at their low NAD's (lol). Damaging auras and effects (as mentioned upthread). Skill challenges that penalize them for being the stereotype big dumb fighters. I know that is usually poor form, but you need to let them experience failure occasionally (not TPK failure, but some degree of it) to make victories sweet again.

D&D is a group experience, sure, but as the DM you have the final say over the type of game played. Consider their feelings, but consider yours as well, and the overall quality of the game.

Jay

PS - The Mean DM in my says to gun for the weakest and when he dies encourage him to bring in something that is a little more. . .lively, but I don't think that is *good* advice.

 

[fba827]

the minions should not try and attack the PCs, but rather once the minions see that they are missing (or the boss sees that they are all mission), they should be using "aid another" to give their bosses a better chance to hit as well as to move in to flanking position to likewise increase their bosses chance to hit.

Also aura damage and zone damage (though if the PCs are still very low level, there are fewer monsters that have auras and zones)

Terrain hazards and traps. -- things that force them to a) worry about something else and make the scene more dynamic (don't know ifyou're already doing this, but mentioning it just in case), b) the hazards can end up hurting/slowing/etc you c)

There is nothing wrong with attacking their lowest defenses if you are mixing up which defenses get attacked so that it isn't obvious that you're zooming in on that set of defenses. So, yeah, they'll get some attacks against their impenetrable Fort and also some against their weaker Reflex (of whatever), etc.

Ongoing damage -- if you can get hits in that inflict ongoing damage, then they just need to get hit once before they have to rely on saves rather than defenses to avoid the pain.

End the campaign and start a new one -- while a last resort, it is an option none the less. There is nothing wrong with them playing what they want to play, but if you're not able to find a way to have fun yourself, then it needs to be changed. Just be careful about how you set up the next campaign or else you'll end up in a party of 5 clerics (or something) and that'll be just as annoying if not worse...

i'm sure there are other ways but that's all i could think of off the top of my head..
of course, ,what works for you and your particular mix of players may be different than what i'm imagining...

 

[ValhallaGH]

Another idea is to give yourself some interesting terrain and monster abilities to play with. That way, even if you're not really threatening the party, you've got some neat terrain and monster abilities to play around with, be creative with, and make for interesting gaming moments with.
I still get a kick out of remembering when I've run the DMG adventure, specifically the encounter with the rolling Indiana Jones-boulder (which I declared would roll for 10 rounds). Then there are the times I've had kobolds / zombies / ghouls leaping through the air in an attempt to strike vulnerable PCs, with mixed results; sure, many fell to their deaths but I had fun doing it and it "looked" cool.
Give yourself some ledges, some interactive traps, some spouting vents, and some other stuff to play with, stuff that's enjoyable and captures your imagination, stuff that may be used by the players or the monsters with equal skill. That way, even though your monsters miss and get trashed by the PCs, you've got fun toys to play with.

Just another suggestion to add to the list.

 

[Herschel]

Another way to go is too have high attack bonus artillery behind a minion or meat shield. The minions will die quickly enough and the meat shield(s) can be eaten through but a coupl eof rounds of ranged pounding can send a message and be hard to mark. Avoid solos especially, and make sure there are numerous damage sources on the field with ranged capabilities to keep the whole thing from turning in to lockdown.

 

[KarinsDad]

This problem is (aside from a poorly built party) that you as the DM should not allow yourself to be bullied into running a cheap and easy version of the game you want to run.

The party is not poorly built.

It is atypically built.

People should get out of the mindset that only certain party role designs result in fun for the players and DM.

An atypically built party has to have the DM throw more atypical encounters at it. For example in this case, a multiple Artillery encounter would work. The NPCs damage the PCs a bit more because of range and defense type, the PCs wipe the NPCs out quicker (so the lower damage of the PCs doesn't matter) because of how few hit points NPC artillery types have.

Lurkers and Skirmishers on the other hand probably wouldn't be as good of an idea too often. Lurkers because they are too hard to damage, Skirmishers because there are no soft PCs to attack.

Brutes would be good mixed with Artillery cause when they hit, they hit hard and they are durable enough to protect the Artillery. Soldiers would also be fine. And Controllers are always good.

Each of the monster roles are good at challenging certain other PC roles. The DM in this case should more often pick monster roles that are good against Defenders. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't throw occasional Lurkers and Skirmishers at the group, he should. He just should concentrate more on the other roles instead. And, not every encounter should have Artillery either. But, it should be a fairly common staple of encounters in this campaign, maybe 40% of the time.

 

[masterfunk]

A group like this does provide some interesting challenges.
First of all, I would avoid brutes. They have higher hit points and lower attack bonuses and that is going to drag out the fights. Soldiers are better opponents for them.
Second, use plenty of minions. The more attack rolls you get on the pc's, the more likely you are to hit them. Minions work particularly well with this group the party doesn't deal a lot of damage and they don't have a controller.
Thirdly, aura's and zones - you don't want to use them every fight, but they would make a good challenge.
Fourth, balance the encounters out with some skirmishers and artillery. Let most of the bad guys attack AC so the party can feel like they haven't wasted time with their heavy armor, but one or two guys a fight that can attack NADS is a good idea.
Fifth - terrain and battlefield. Occasionally use some larger battlefields where the bad guys can move around more and keep the range open. It looks like your party would have a tough time if they can't close with the bad guys. use it sparingly though as you don't want them to get frustrated.

 

[Turtlejay]

Poorly built? Atypically built?

"Hey guys, I just bought a house! It was built *atypically*, but that's cool!"

Which can mean your house is shaped like a flying saucer, or it has no roof. Atypical *can* be good (ooh, a party of all Arcane characters) or bad (hey, a party of barbarians. . .great).

In this case, a party of all Defenders with one Martial Leader is a bit much. Add to that their "complaining" (whining!) when the DM plays to their weaknesses, and I would consider that a poorly built party.

Jay

 

[CovertOps]

Just to emphasize what someone else said up thread. Use artillery that target NAD's. Be sure that you mix it up so that you attack Fort, Will, and Ref a roughly equal share so that no individual PC feels like they are being singled out. Something that helps with this is what I did in an adventure a few months ago. I had the PC's going to defeat some Kobalds that were worshiping a White Dragon. I went with a frost theme and gave every Kobold some kind of frost power(s) that targeted Fort. Some time in the future I'll do a dungeon with a different theme that targets Ref or Will.

I agree with whoever said to use Brutes with Minions flanking and doing Aid Another. This gives your Brute +4 to hit each round for the cost of 1/4 of a regular creature and if the Minion dies just move another in to replace it.