Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
How do I determine, based on any formula out there, how to create appropriately-powered Powers without tipping the scales for balance at each level?
How to create my own powers (with formulas)?
- Thread starter Daniel D. Fox
- Start date
Step 1. Find power similar to what you are trying to do at the required level.
Step 2. Make sure new power doesn't make old power look obsolete.
Step 3. If power you are comparing to is from a class with a different role, make sure the power doesn't diversify the class too much.
Step 4. Ask players if this power is a no brainer. If yes, go to step 1, else go to step 5.
Step 5. Ask players if they would ever take this power over other options. If no, go to step 1, else go to step 6.
Step 6. Ask yourself how much trouble would this power be against your monsters. If you don't like the implications, go to step 1, else go to step 7.
Step 7. Test this power in various combinations with other powers, multiclass combos, with different races, with leader bonuses, with different equipment, etc. If it's broken, go to step 1, else go to step 8.
Step 8. This list is not comprehensive, so only allow this power with the caveat of retconning it away if it's not working as intended.
For as generic a question as you have, that's the formula in a nut shell. Try the house rules forum if you have something more specific in mind that you want opinions on. These forums are also a good place to balance powers.
Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
Step 1. Find power similar to what you are trying to do at the required level.
Step 2. Make sure new power doesn't make old power look obsolete.
Step 3. If power you are comparing to is from a class with a different role, make sure the power doesn't diversify the class too much.
Step 4. Ask players if this power is a no brainer. If yes, go to step 1, else go to step 5.
Step 5. Ask players if they would ever take this power over other options. If no, go to step 1, else go to step 6.
Step 6. Ask yourself how much trouble would this power be against your monsters. If you don't like the implications, go to step 1, else go to step 7.
Step 7. Test this power in various combinations with other powers, multiclass combos, with different races, with leader bonuses, with different equipment, etc. If it's broken, go to step 1, else go to step 8.
Step 8. This list is not comprehensive, so only allow this power with the caveat of retconning it away if it's not working as intended.
For as generic a question as you have, that's the formula in a nut shell. Try the house rules forum if you have something more specific in mind that you want opinions on. These forums are also a good place to balance powers.
All excellent suggestions. However, I am looking for the ubiquitous "secret sauce", if you will, how WotC balances these powers numerically. I thought I had seen a thread on the Wizards forum a while back, but lost it somewhere in the mux of 4E's release.
Episode 86 of The Tome Show (podcast) has Eytan Bernstein on it. He is a freelancer that has worked for WotC on Arcane Powers and PHB2 (and others). In the interview on the show he talks about balancing powers a little bit.
From memory, some of the things he mentions are:
- (save end) effects are only for Daily Powers
- Until end of your next turn are for Encounter Powers
Hmm, I think he says more but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.
The Tome Show
From memory, some of the things he mentions are:
- (save end) effects are only for Daily Powers
- Until end of your next turn are for Encounter Powers
Hmm, I think he says more but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.
The Tome Show
Mort_Q
First Post
Thanks.
I wonder if WotC will release the guidlines? I'm sure people could reverse engineer them, or whatever, but...
... it's not like I wouldn't buy any more product if they made it easier to customize powers for a campaign.
WalterKovacs
First Post
For just flat out damage:
Encounter (Defender):
Level 1 - For the fighter there are 2 powers that give 2[W], one power gives two seperate 1[W] attacks. The one that only does 1[W] knocks someone prone. All of the Paladin's attacks are 2[w]. So, in general, 2[w] with some benefit [could be split into two attacks]. Prone, or similar effects that grant combat advantage are arguably "worth" 1[W].
Level 3 - Fighter - either 2[W], two 1[W] attacks, 1[W] vs. Reflex, 1[W] with a +4 to hit and finally 1[W] in a burst. Paladin - 2[W], or 1[W] against 2 targets. So, similar to first level, but attacking multiple opponents, or getting a greater chance of hitting [attack vs. Reflex with a weapon, or a static +4] costs 1[W].
Level 7 - Fighter - 2[W], add 1[W] for a penalty on attack roll, subtract 1[W] if burst attack. Paladin - 2[W] [or some arcane equivalent]. The only one that's a single die dazes the opponent, which follows the "combat advantage" rule.
So it would seem that all the heroic powers for defenders are relatively "equal".
Encounter powers for strikers:
Ranger (1) - 2[W], 2 x 1[W], 1[W] as a reaction, 1[W] burst
Rogue (1) - 1[W] + daze, 2[W], 1[W] vs. Will
Ranger (3) - 2 x 1[W], 1[W] as interupt, 2[W]
Rogue (3) - 2[W] vs. Will, 2[W] + ce to you, 1[W] + prone, 2[W]
Ranger (7) - 2[W] + 1[W], 2[W] w/ bonus to attack, 1[W] + prone
Rogue (7) - 1[W] blast, 1[W] vs. fort, 2[w] + 1[w] on a miss, 1[W] + blind
The numbers ramp up a bit more than the defender, but the "3 weapon" attacks have basically no other effects. There are some odd things with the "target different defense" idea, but granting the entire party combat advantage [blinding, knocking prone, dazing] does equal 1[W] worth. Having multiple attacks ussually means each attack is probably doing only 1[W]. If it goes to 3[W] there is a cost involved, attacking with a penalty, for example.
Just to make sure
Leaders:
Cleric (1) : 2[w], 1[w] + daze
Wlord (1): 2[w], 1[w] + ally attack (i.e. + 1[W])
Cleric (3) : 1[w] + prone, 1[w] + ranged attacks at +4
Wlord (3) : 2[w], 1[w] + Ac bonus to some allies
Cleric (7) : 1[w] vs. will, 2[w]
Wlord (7) : 2[w], 1[w] + free basic attack from ally
So, the leaders more or less support the theme, with a few more 1[w] powers that give a bonus to the allies, which are comparable to combat advantage to all allies. There is one that seems a bit odd.
Anyway, based on heroic encounter weapon based powers anyway, it seems that most of the classes are pretty comparable. One note on the ranger: A 1[W] attack that is "Free" [i.e. interupt] is equivalent to an encounter power that gives 2 attacks at 1[W] each, since you'd have your normal attack for the turn, plus the interupt/reaction attack.
Encounter (Defender):
Level 1 - For the fighter there are 2 powers that give 2[W], one power gives two seperate 1[W] attacks. The one that only does 1[W] knocks someone prone. All of the Paladin's attacks are 2[w]. So, in general, 2[w] with some benefit [could be split into two attacks]. Prone, or similar effects that grant combat advantage are arguably "worth" 1[W].
Level 3 - Fighter - either 2[W], two 1[W] attacks, 1[W] vs. Reflex, 1[W] with a +4 to hit and finally 1[W] in a burst. Paladin - 2[W], or 1[W] against 2 targets. So, similar to first level, but attacking multiple opponents, or getting a greater chance of hitting [attack vs. Reflex with a weapon, or a static +4] costs 1[W].
Level 7 - Fighter - 2[W], add 1[W] for a penalty on attack roll, subtract 1[W] if burst attack. Paladin - 2[W] [or some arcane equivalent]. The only one that's a single die dazes the opponent, which follows the "combat advantage" rule.
So it would seem that all the heroic powers for defenders are relatively "equal".
Encounter powers for strikers:
Ranger (1) - 2[W], 2 x 1[W], 1[W] as a reaction, 1[W] burst
Rogue (1) - 1[W] + daze, 2[W], 1[W] vs. Will
Ranger (3) - 2 x 1[W], 1[W] as interupt, 2[W]
Rogue (3) - 2[W] vs. Will, 2[W] + ce to you, 1[W] + prone, 2[W]
Ranger (7) - 2[W] + 1[W], 2[W] w/ bonus to attack, 1[W] + prone
Rogue (7) - 1[W] blast, 1[W] vs. fort, 2[w] + 1[w] on a miss, 1[W] + blind
The numbers ramp up a bit more than the defender, but the "3 weapon" attacks have basically no other effects. There are some odd things with the "target different defense" idea, but granting the entire party combat advantage [blinding, knocking prone, dazing] does equal 1[W] worth. Having multiple attacks ussually means each attack is probably doing only 1[W]. If it goes to 3[W] there is a cost involved, attacking with a penalty, for example.
Just to make sure
Leaders:
Cleric (1) : 2[w], 1[w] + daze
Wlord (1): 2[w], 1[w] + ally attack (i.e. + 1[W])
Cleric (3) : 1[w] + prone, 1[w] + ranged attacks at +4
Wlord (3) : 2[w], 1[w] + Ac bonus to some allies
Cleric (7) : 1[w] vs. will, 2[w]
Wlord (7) : 2[w], 1[w] + free basic attack from ally
So, the leaders more or less support the theme, with a few more 1[w] powers that give a bonus to the allies, which are comparable to combat advantage to all allies. There is one that seems a bit odd.
Anyway, based on heroic encounter weapon based powers anyway, it seems that most of the classes are pretty comparable. One note on the ranger: A 1[W] attack that is "Free" [i.e. interupt] is equivalent to an encounter power that gives 2 attacks at 1[W] each, since you'd have your normal attack for the turn, plus the interupt/reaction attack.
Grazzt
Demon Lord
There are a few At-Wills that do the "until the end of your next turn" I think. Ray of Frost (IIRC) does it.
The Little Raven
First Post
Sounds like ideal content for a Dungeon Master's Guide 2.
TheWyrd
First Post
One of the Illusion Attacks from the Dragon 'class acts' does as well. It is an important feature for those Wizards who have gone with Orb mastery.
Gruns
Explorer
Doubtful...
I highly doubt there is a "secret formula" as this simply isn't an exact science. While it's possible to assign implied values to certain effects and status effects, these values are going to be different for everyone. A group with a rogue in it may value powers that make creating Combat Advantage(Blind, prone, shifting friends/enemies) easier, while a group of ranged attackers may value Slow and Immobilize effects more.
So which power is worth more?
Hit: 1[w] + You shift 1
-or-
Hit: 1[w] + Slowed(Until EoYNT)
How about:
Hit: 1[w] + You shift 1 and slide enemy 1
-or-
Hit: 1[w] + Slowed(Save Ends)
Too hard to say(impossible, really "Napoleon, like anyone could even know that.") which is better. Because of the abstractness of powers, there can't be a secret formula. It's more of a "feel" thing.
Later
Gruns
I highly doubt there is a "secret formula" as this simply isn't an exact science. While it's possible to assign implied values to certain effects and status effects, these values are going to be different for everyone. A group with a rogue in it may value powers that make creating Combat Advantage(Blind, prone, shifting friends/enemies) easier, while a group of ranged attackers may value Slow and Immobilize effects more.
So which power is worth more?
Hit: 1[w] + You shift 1
-or-
Hit: 1[w] + Slowed(Until EoYNT)
How about:
Hit: 1[w] + You shift 1 and slide enemy 1
-or-
Hit: 1[w] + Slowed(Save Ends)
Too hard to say(impossible, really "Napoleon, like anyone could even know that.") which is better. Because of the abstractness of powers, there can't be a secret formula. It's more of a "feel" thing.
Later
Gruns
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