How to modify encounters to suit 7 characters?

[Blackbrrd]

I am currently running the WotBS campaign and having a blast with the role playing aspect.

The combat side of things is a bit lack-luster due to the fact that it really is a diverse party with lots of bits and pieces that fit really nice together. In other words, if something needs to be slowed, it's slowed, dazed or whatever.

So far I have been trying to add hp, add more of the rank-and-file monsters, etc, but it really hasn't been working out well after they hit level 2 and it got much worse when they hit level 3 with the additional encounter power.

The problem is mostly the conditions (slow, marked, dazed, bonus to hit/damage, whatever) that get put on my "special" mobs. I am therefore thinking of instead of having one special mob, I will have two. That way conditions will only be half as effective as before. On the other hand, focus-fire will bring one of them down real quick (1 round quick).

The best strategy to use would probably be to split the party a bit, since my main problem is the synergy the characters have. The main problem with this is that it isn't something I can do all the time.

The party consists of: Warlord, Paladin Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger (ranged), Sorcerer and a Wizard. A well-rounded party with the strikers doing ridicules amounts of damage, a tank that gets damage reduction 3 and a Warlord that can buff the whole party quite a lot in the damage department.

To sum it up, I am looking for an assortment of strategies I can use to make combat interesting without dragging out.

Tried and failed:
Adding more monsters of the same type as was in the regular encounter
Changing the special mob into a one with more hp

Not tried, but hopeful:
Doubling the special mobs
Tactic: split the party*
Add more xp worth of monsters compared to players
Add +0.5 dmg pr level to mobs

My final ideas after reading the suggestions below:

• Reinforcements - start with the regular 5 monsters and add 2 in round two and three.
• Level up the opponents by 2-3 levels making them hit harder and be harder to focus fire down.
• Split the party mid combat so they will be fighting two separate fights so they can't focus fire as readily.

As I see it, these three options are quite different and one of them should probably always be usable. It should be possible to mix them a bit too, giving the players a wide assortment of fights.

 

[Talysian]

I think for WOTBS, depending on where you are in the module the best bet is to increase the number of creatures. You have 2 more players then what it plans for. That's an additional 40% of resources on the players side. I would think the simple solution would be to add 40% more monsters. More headache on your part, but With 7 players.. that's a lot. I don't think beefing up 1 or 2 creatures will work to well, because focus fire as you say. They won't have enough time to damage the party.

Pretty much I would be adding 2-3 additional creatures per fight. Also, you may want to consider adding some terrain stuff. If your doing Fire Forest right now, have falling timbers and such, burnt out holes in the ground that act like pit traps with burning charcoal at the bottom, split your party up a bit. Keep them from being able to focus fire. In fact you may want to modify monsters a bit to give them, some slow/daze/immobilize powers.

I hope this helps

 

[eriktheguy]

I think with 7 players your main issue is going to be lag, er, um... grind! With 5 players/monsters the fight goes fast while with 7 it will take longer even if balanced. I think your objective here is that you need to present the players with the same challenge and risk while not forcing combat to take much longer.

The players have more encounter and daily powers. If they are not presented with multiple fights daily, their nova's are going to be devastating and time consuming, so I would recommend
1: multiple fights per day

With all that monster out there, communication is going to be a bitch. Trying to communicate defenses to players every turn will be messy as well, so try to offload things like tracking which attacks hit from the DM to the players.
2: Invest in a white-board and record monster/player defenses on it
3: Clearly label which monster's are minions, players can remove dead minions themselves

Along with that, minions do not present much threat to PCs in such large groups as areas from all those encounter powers will overlap, so I suggest
4: use 8 minions as a single monster
5: Use 4 bloodied minions as a single monster, bloodied minions;
- use same stats as minions
- are bloodied by a single hit/damage effect
- die from any hit/damage effect while bloodied
- die if they take their FORT in damage from a hit/damage effect

More stunning and dazing is going to be thrown out there, and it will effect Solo's a ton. For this reason:
6: Solo monster's may save against one stun, daze or blind effect at the beginning of their turn, even if it is not a condition they could save against

In addition, there will be much more stunning going around in general, so to help prevent people losing half their turns:
7: Stunned creatures lose one standard action each turn, dazed targets lose one move action each turn, they may spend other actions and action points normally

Finally, some tips on building combats
8: More minions will help the combat seem bigger, help add damage, without making the fight too long.
9: Traps help add threat and damage to the enemy team without adding HP and grind to the enemy team. Choose traps that are
- One shot: only attack once or can be avoided easily once players see them
- Easy to disarm: Can be avoided or ignored after triggering, or disarmed with a single successful standard action

As for monster choices
10: Only one controller, controller turns take a long time
11: Do not use soldiers, they add too much grind
12: For extra monsters choose artillery, they add damage and threat but are quickly cut down once in melee, or can retreat once the melee forces are gone for an even quicker combat

In general, you still need to make combats larger (7 or 8 monsters large) for good balance, but try to make up the extra monsters in the form of minions, artillery, traps. Remember to use an array of terrain and hazards. A solo that only 5 of your party members can reach, see, or target will only get stunned as much as a solo fighting against a regular party. Terrain can help you 'split up the party' while keeping them in the same fight.

Split up the party as a last resort, because then a bunch of players get to sit there and do nothing, which is no fun. A better option than this would be splitting up the table into separate groups.

Edit: I think +0.5 damage per monster level is a good idea, as the players need something to challenge them extra in addition to 7 monsters per combat.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I changed minions to underlings - it's the same deal, only they get bloodied the first time round and dead the second time. Additionally, all underling groups go on the same initiative.

Adding to the number of monsters might be OK if they have a big area to fight in, otherwise the AOE attacks will become much too good. So, gonna stick with adding monsters as suggested, but only ranged ones who can keep their distance.

For fights that are in confined spaces I think I will go for some alternate strategy. Making two of the monsters Elite somehow will work out... Any suggestions for templates I can easily add?

Using Artillery seems to be a good idea, or since I am using a pre-made module, modifying skirmishers/brutes to artillery. Personally I think Soldiers are ok, the party just needs to let the non-ac targeting characters take care of them.

And yeah, adding the +0.5 damage per monster level in addition to the other changes seems like a good way to compensate for the increased synergy of a 7-man party.

Regarding combat round speed - we got that pretty much covered, doing a lot of the stuff mentioned here.

... And thanks for the suggestions, it really helps getting some input.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Another option is to simply run the adventure as is. Since there are less monsters per PC, they will level slower, reaching a point where the party is one or two levels below what the adventure calls for. The lower level disadvantage will be made up by having two extra players around. Of course, this will take a while for this effect to happen.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Another option is to simply run the adventure as is. Since there are less monsters per PC, they will level slower, reaching a point where the party is one or two levels below what the adventure calls for. The lower level disadvantage will be made up by having two extra players around. Of course, this will take a while for this effect to happen.

If I do this, monsters will have higher defenses which makes characters miss more. Which isn't too much fun. I like the inherent hit chance at around 55%.

... I am not tracking xp btw, I am just using the rough guideline to when the characters are expected to level in the modules.

 

[eriktheguy]

If I do this, monsters will have higher defenses which makes characters miss more. Which isn't too much fun. I like the inherent hit chance at around 55%.

... I am not tracking xp btw, I am just using the rough guideline to when the characters are expected to level in the modules.

That's a good point about hit chances, same level monsters are almost always the way to go. I don't track XP either by the way. I just level the player's when I feel like it.

 

[Mesh Hong]

... I am not tracking xp btw, I am just using the rough guideline to when the characters are expected to level in the modules.

Ah ha! If you are not tracking XP then you have the complete freedom to keep adding extra creatures as reinforcements when the need arises.

If the group are finding an encounter too easy (in your opinion) then bring in another wave flanking them or following up behind the first wave. If thats still not enough throw in some more.

This simple approach means that you can keep encounters dynamic and interesting while keeping everything under control. For important encounters I would look for interesting creatures to add if the need arises, or better yet design them yourself. I think a random (sort of ) group of creatures stumbling into the battle site would make for an excellent surprise (for both the PCs and whoever it was they were fighting!).

You say your group is level 3, imagine everyones surprise if in round 3 of a fight 2 Death Jump Spiders leap from hiding and attack the back row.

 

[KarinsDad]

If I do this, monsters will have higher defenses which makes characters miss more. Which isn't too much fun. I like the inherent hit chance at around 55%.

Actually, you are mis-analyzing this.

First, it will take a while before the PCs actually start falling behind a bit. Quite a while. The PCs will continue to hit 55% of the time (or whatever average is for this group / this module) for quite some time.

Second, there will be 7 PCs per round vs. 5 NPCs (typically). That means that the PCs get the spotlight 7/12ths or 58% of the time. This is, in fact, more fun than 50% of the time PCs and 50% of the time NPCs.

Third, encounters will be slightly faster due to the increased PC action economy.

Fourth, the DM has fewer NPCs to run on average per encounter than some of the other suggestions. This is easier on the DM.

Fifth, once the PCs fall behind, the 55% chance to hit falls to 50%. That's hardly a significant drop in chance to hit and the PCs will still hit more times per round than they would with fewer PCs. 7 PCs with a 50% chance to hit does 3.5 x damage per round whereas 5 PCs with a 55% chance to hit that the module assumes would do 2.75% x damage per round. The players will still feel very successful.

Course, you have to keep track of XP this way or use 14 same level encounters per level instead of 10 or something similar.


The best suggestions so far here are:

1) Increase the number of encounters "per day".
2) Keep the encounters more or less the same as in the module (i.e. easier for a group of 7, possibly adding one foe at most to an encounter).
3) Have 2 special encounters per section instead of 1 which probably means adding in a few extra encounters.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Interesting regarding the thinking about slower leveling. Let's look at some numbers

At level 7-30 and above they will be two levels behind. The characters hit chance will have gone from about 55% to 45% and the monsters hit chance gone from 55% to 65%. In other words, the DPR of the characters is down to about 81% and the monsters DPR are up to about 118%.

To calculate the DPR of the party it goes about like this: 81% multiplied by 7/5 = 114% the DPR of a party two levels higher with 5 characters. Their HP is at level about 10% lower around level 7 and about 5% around level 30. So, 93% multiplied by 7/5 = 130% of the HP of a party two levels higher with 5 characters.

The monsters are doing more damage, but the characters have a larger HP pool, so we get that the characters are about 10% tougher. Individually they are less tough though and more prone to focus fire.

On the other hand, the characters are doing more damage, compared to the monster hp. Adjusted for the to-hit chance the monsters are about 13% less tough.

The math above is a bit iffy, but as it looks to me, the party gets more hp and damage if I do it this way. There are a lot more variables than the ones I have used above, but I am guessing they about even out. (For instance shorter encounters lets you use a higher percentage of daily/encounter powers over at-will powers, but at the same time, being lower level gives you more encounter/daily powers to use)

Another way I could do it is to increase the monsters defenses and attacks by 2 (the level difference the above suggestion gives) and increase the damage by about 2.

I am not a big fan of increasing encounters per day - it's fun to use your dailies, and additionally nearly all the encounters have some meaning now. Adding "random" encounters is probably not going to add much to the story.

What I could do is to allow "daily" rests every 5 encounters and not let it depend on resting at all. It is a bit arbitrary and the classes that depends on their dailies like the barbarian and the wizard will take quite a hit.

Bah, when I think of it, it's not like I am not making them burn healing surges... I would probably have to make a house rule that they could pool their healing surges.