How will guns change a D&D world?

[Shades of Green]

Another thread already discusses the impact of gunpowder weapons on the medieval society; reading it will supply you with some of the background technical and historical facts and speculations that would be useful on the subject. However, it had only briefly touched the subject of the guns' impact on a D&D fantasy settings, which is profoundly different from the original historical settings due to the existance of magic (both divine and arcane) and supernatural creatures in it. So how would a D&D fantasy setting be effected by the introduction of black powder weapons on a large scale?

 

[fredramsey]

A variation on the spell, "Protection from Arrows" would become the most valuable spell in the world.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Depends on the setting and the world. If magic is high, I don't see too much impact, if low I can see it. Magic and Guns become a balancing act, do magic users equal or pass those of gun production or the other way around?

You also have to think about fear; guns in the wrong hands. Would not the Wizard Guild see them a threat to their power base, what about the gods?

What is the cost of a gun vs Wand (include ammo)? Don't have my books or I would do a side by side.

 

[Janx]

In the modern world, Guns trump Rock, Paper and Scissor (ask JFK). Anybody can get a gun (well in the US, kind of), anybody can use a gun. They're the great equalizer. Heck, as one friend wrote an english paper on, they help provide equality to women (basis: men live by "might makes right", gun in woman's hand equalizes that, as it takes no strength, only skill and DEX).

Anyway, the point is, Guns don't take much skill (short range, tommy guns, etc), so they equalize the social classes. Once highly available, this effect is significant. In a D&D game, they're probably not so common, more like the availability of a crossbow. Based on muzzle-loading black powder technology, they'd be similar to a crossbow (ignoring exploding barrels and possibly better damage). In which case, you'd have to ask, how much have crossbows changed the D&D world?

Let's assume guns have developed such that they're like what you see in pirate movies:
pistols and rifles (or smoothbores)
no exploding barrels (unlike 2E's FR guns)
takes a round to reload (single shot guns)
damage = 1d10
pistol range increment= 30'
rifle range increment = 50'
cost = similar to a long bow or heavy crossbow

I'm not trying to be super realistic here, but I'd guess that the above stats are good enough for this conversation. Based on that, I'd guess that adventurers would quit using crossbows and tuck a pistol in their belt instead (just like pirate movies). Gun fights would get smoky really quick, so there'd be rules for smoke concealment being used a lot. Magic users would still cast fireballs and such, because they do better damage. Feats would exist for reloading faster and there may be some buckshot ammo available. The real inhibitor to guns taking over is likely gunpowder. How much does it cost per shot? If Gunpowder is rare, than it'll be less common to see guns. If it is more common, than you'll see more guns. It will simply replace other weapons. Magic will still probably be useful, because guns can't scry or teleport.

Janx

 

[JoeGKushner]

Unless it's followed up by other types of advancements, hardly any change at all.

Heck, the Red Wizards have pirate islands armed with Greek Fire cannons and FR itself has the Gondsmen and other bits of Black (or is it Smoke?) powder around.

Freeport, Arcanis, Swashbuckling Adventurers and others have it.

Overall they're not that impressive unless it leads to other things like the steam golems from Iron Kingdoms.

 

[Shades of Green]

You also have to think about fear; guns in the wrong hands. Would not the Wizard Guild see them a threat to their power base, what about the gods?

What is the cost of a gun vs Wand (include ammo)? Don't have my books or I would do a side by side.

What about the gods? I say it should depend on the god/religion. Dwarven and Gnomish gods probably would like the new advance (they're generally pro-technology and associated with iron and fire), while some gods of Nature might dislike the idea; think of the Hammerite-Pagan conflict in the Thief computer game.

And while guns make some of the lower-level direct-damage offensive spells far less useful, they make other spells EXTREMELY valuable (even the 1st level Mage Armor gives +4 to AC that NOTHING could penetrate, not even guns), and do not effect most other spells. Mage Guilds might actually start to diversify into bodyguarding in such an era!

Cost and Performance Comparison:

Wand of Magic Missiles (Caster Level 1): 750 GP; holds 50 charges; attacks once per action; always hits; 1d4+1 damage, no save; range 110 ft.

Wand of Fireballs (Caster Level 5): 11,250 GP; holds 50 charges; attacks once per action; always hits (unless obstructed); 5d6 damage, reflex save halves; range 600 ft.; effect radius 20 ft.

DMG 3.0E - Musket: 500 GP; takes one standard action to reload; standard attack roll to hit; 1d12 damage, crit x3; range increment 150 ft.; 50 bullets cost 15 GP; a powder horn holds 2 pounds of powder and costs 35 GP but it isn't clear how much powder each shot needs.

Fantasy Flight's Sorcery and Steam - Flintlock Musket: 180 GP; takes a full round to reload unless feats/skills are involved (then it could even take a move-equivalent action!); standard attack roll to hit (or the optional ranged touch attack to hit); 2d8 damage, crit x3; range increment 100 ft.; 50 bullets cost 2.5 GP and the powder needed to fire them costs 10 GP.

I am currently thinking about adopting the Steam&Sorcery rules with the following modifications: Ranged touch attack unless against an "armor of proof" (magical or just Masterwork?) or the natural armor of certain creatures (DM's discretion); I'll be using mostly Matchlocks; All firearm-related costs are 75% of usual due to early attempts of mass-producing them (I'll be running a Steampunk campaign); load time 3 full rounds, 2 with the Rapid Reload feat OR with a successful Munitions skill check, 1 full round with both Rapid Reload AND a successful Munitions skill check.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Little or no impact from what I can see but I fear for the party that runs across a group of orcs with guns.

Sorcery and Steam rule set appear to be more balanced and the additions you are setting does make it so you do not have to worry about CRs.

What about the gods? Well, IF there is a god of firearms would his clerics be the only ones to create the powder (spell)? What would the god do because someone is making powder without their approval, how about the church? As said in the other thread, guns are an equilizer, we can also say they lead down a road of destruction, more, better, gernades, TNT, land mines, rockets, missles, would the gods not have seen this path on other worlds and set 'rules'.

I guess it does not matter in the scheme and plot but could be elements for the game.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

So how would a D&D fantasy setting be effected by the introduction of black powder weapons on a large scale?

It would look something like Iron Kingdoms I imagine.

It is fully fantasy, with minor steam-punkism. I can accept that mass-produced blackpower weapons would end up creating a revolution in metalworking as the technology to produce quality barrels could easily benefit construction of other metal devices. Iron Kingdoms did a fine job of not letting such a concept run wild into an accelerated technology race. It is more recognizably fantasy than steampunk.

 

[adwyn]

There is no right answer. A major part of the problem is people hypothesyzing fairly advanced gunpowder weapons appearing out of nowhere (which is admmitedly quite possible in D&D). What I see as the question is would the weapons be developed in the first place.

Most of the suggested firearms in the this thread and the last reflect about six hundred years of development. The first weapons were cumbersome and quirky at best - cannons that had little use on a battlefield and were mainly used against fortifications. In this early period a standard spell caster can easily outperform the cannon, and probably a lot cheaper as well. So to develop the weapons there needs to be a period where the magic simply isn't available to at least one side.

 

[Patlin]

Another it depends. Effectiveness and price are important. If a musket is an expensive and unreliable alternative to a wand, guns would have little effect.