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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 1791275" data-attributes="member: 158">If you look at each of my first three or four posts, I'm saying plenty of nice things about the earlier editions; they brought me fun times with my friends that I never would have had otherwise, first of all (I met my first real gaming group by talking with one of them about the PHB he was carrying in class in high school). Second, the convolution of the rules had one positive effect I noted on - the sense of personal accomplishment that one had by being the "go to guy" on the rules - very few people back then were even remotely familiar with anything beyond slinging a d20 and how to level up, because the DMG was what it was - disorganized, and carrying this "rules-masters only" air. Then, I mentioned that for all that, it was a good game - it was certainly more complete than any version before it.I still believe that each one failed at communicating with the other. If it were simple --> complex, then why does the AC system vary inexplicably by one point, why are hit dice different between classes, why do wizards gain fewer spells, and those same spells are often different in they way they work? It wasn't just the design philosophies, it was the core game assumptions themselves that were different enough to make them two separate games. If you look at it chronologically, it was Moldvay basic who failed AD&D; however, looking at Moldvay's design versus Gary's re-design, comparing both to Original D&D, maybe it was AD&D who failed Moldvay's attempt! Regardless, there was too little communication between the two to be the best bridge product.However, I think AD&D would have benefitted better from something like Gary's later design attempt at the Mythus game - put a bare-bones in the front, and tack on all the advanced in part II. Hindsight is 20/20, with every edition, not just AD&D or 3E.It's just my opinion, but I think they do a pretty good job from the get-go; There still needs to be a Moldvay-style gateway product, sure, but even in the PHB the teaching tools and self-teaching tools are there. It's that part of the game that many people define as "soulless." <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Agreed.It's strange, but looking and comparing AD&D to OD&D, they had similar goals; both products were fairly revolutionary. Gary altered many target numbers when moving from 3d6 to d20 for combat and save rolls, and incorporated many of the design efforts of others in his group and from other groups when designing; 3E for sure examined every piece of the game, nothing was sacrosanct, no attack roll, no saving throw, no magic system; even magic missile went through a few trial runs before the playtesters screamed loudly at the design team to leave it alone. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> In the end, both used the pool of existing rules available in the design community at the time to radically alter the game. It's just that the designer pool was MUUUCH larger for 3E than for 1E.I've seen places where the result of such rancor ended up in getting the place shut down; we generally frown on outright edition wars here, and I'm sorry that we've somehow meandered towards that way ourselves. I'll close by saying that I've loved every version I've played - but my opinion is that I've seen a definitely improved direction in each edition, and that's why I've dropped playing each edition in favor of the one after it, not because I can't find players. Great memories then, and great memories now - as long as I keep generating those, the edition I'm playing is irrelevant.</blockquote>

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