D&D General If you had to split up Dexterity...

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Dexterity annoys me sometimes. Outside of D&D - Why would the quickest draw be the most accurate shot? Why should the surgeon with great hands be a great acrobat? etc... For example, 2e for Skills and Powers split Dexterity into Aim and Balance.

If you had to split Dexterity into two substats, how would you break these up in terms of theme cohesiveness (not necessarily usefulness balance)?

Acrobatics
Armor Class
Climb Walls
Disable Device
Dodge
Escape Artist
Initiative
Movement Rate
Parry
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
To Hit Melee
To Hit Missile

Thanks for any thoughts!
 

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payn

Legend
This seems to be looking for a level of nuance that I don't need from attribute stats. However, if you were to simplify a skills system into stats then it might be more important. I can play along in that case.

Agility:
Quickness
limber
Reactive

Adroitness:
Slight of hand
Skillfulness
Adeptness

Agility for physical stuff, and adroitness for skill stuff. Not perfect but seems to separate things nicely.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
This seems to be looking for a level of nuance that I don't need from attribute stats. However, if you were to simplify a skills system into stats then it might be more important. I can play along in that case.

Agility:
Quickness
limber
Reactive

Adroitness:
Slight of hand
Skillfulness
Adeptness

Agility for physical stuff, and adroitness for skill stuff. Not perfect but seems to separate things nicely.

I have some things about Dexterity that bother me. But every time I try to break them up I start thinking of other ways to divide them, and...

Anyway, I thought it would be easier to just get more opinions. I haven't decided if I'll ever split them up for homebrew stuff, but I figure I'll stop even considering it if it looks like their isn't a good split.

Thank you for your input!
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I would separate them into your ability to control/manipulate your own body and your ability to interact with objects.

Control/manipulate your own body:
Acrobatics
Armor Class
Climb Walls
Dodge
Movement Rate
Stealth

Interact with objects:
Disable Device
Parry
Sleight of Hand
To Hit Melee
To Hit Missile

Call them what you will.

Initiative I would not link to Dexterity, but allow it to go to Intelligence or Wisdom to prevent those from being dump stats for martials.

FWIW, Dexterity has for a long time been too useful, and d20 D&D made it worse than ever IMO.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
These work as either eight abilities or four abilities.

Strength-Constitution
Athletics-Dexterity

Intelligence-Perception
Charisma-Wisdom

Athletics is mobility, including all of the Athletics checks and Acrobatics, as well as speed and the AC bonus. Finesse weapons are here.

Dexterity is precision, including manual-dexterity Slight-of-Hand and Stealth. Aiming weapons (bows, guns) are here.
 

Retreater

Legend
Warhammer Fantasy splits it into Ballistic Skill, Agility (full body movement), Dexterity (fine motor skills), and a separate Initiative characteristic. While I think that's too much for D&D, I think Agility and Dexterity could be an okay distinction. Or just putting different levels of proficiency in related skills.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
These work as either eight abilities or four abilities.

Strength-Constitution
Athletics-Dexterity

Intelligence-Perception
Charisma-Wisdom

Athletics is mobility, including all of the Athletics checks and Acrobatics, as well as speed and the AC bonus. Finesse weapons are here.

Dexterity is precision, including manual-dexterity Slight-of-Hand and Stealth. Aiming weapons (bows, guns) are here.

That's along the lines of what I'm thinking (might rename Intelligence and Wisdom), but splitting the Dexterity always has me second guessing. Thanks for the feedback!
 

Mezuka

Hero
The problem you have with dexterity is fixed in Fantasy AGE. It's divided in three.

  • Dexterity, for dextrous things, agility and coordination.
  • Accuracy, to hit with range attacks or finesse weapons.
  • Perception, to do more damage.

It works well. You can have a character who is good at fixing things but can't shoot a bow properly to defend himself.
 

One way to go at it.
Reflex:" AC, Save and Accrobatics."
Precision:" To hit with projectile and finesse, skills that requires hand eye coordination such as pick locks, sleight of hand"

Initiative should always go with wisdom or intelligence.
Strength penalties should always apply to melee weapons, finesse or not.
 


Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Agility = Acrobatics, Balance, Poise, Dodge (Combat bonus)
Dexterity = Coordination, 'sleight of hand' (Precision?), Accuracy (Range Attck)
Athletics (Dex+Str) = Climb, Swim, Run etc, Grapple bonus
Con and Str merge as 'Brawn' used for Damage and Muscle Power checks
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
This seems to be looking for a level of nuance that I don't need from attribute stats. However, if you were to simplify a skills system into stats then it might be more important. I can play along in that case.

Agility:
Quickness
limber
Reactive

Adroitness:
Slight of hand
Skillfulness
Adeptness

Agility for physical stuff, and adroitness for skill stuff. Not perfect but seems to separate things nicely.
This roughly matches how Mutants and Masterminds 3e broke them out - Agility and Dexterity (as in hand-eye coordination). They also broke Strength out into Strength/Fighting to separate brute strength from ability to land a blow in melee. That's a bit more on-point for a superhero game, but the breakout of the two big combat stats seems to work pretty well.

Agility
Acrobatics
Armor Class
Saving throw
Initiative
Stealth

Dexterity
Disable Device
Sleight of Hand
To Hit Ranged (and melee if finesse)

Edit: Fairly importantly, the big offensive (attack roll) and defensive applications (AC, saves) don't sit with the same stat.
 


Dexterity annoys me sometimes. Outside of D&D - Why would the quickest draw be the most accurate shot? Why should the surgeon with great hands be a great acrobat? etc... For example, 2e for Skills and Powers split Dexterity into Aim and Balance.

If you had to split Dexterity into two substats, how would you break these up in terms of theme cohesiveness (not necessarily usefulness balance)?

I'd probably break it down into Grace (general motor control, balance, coordination) and Reflexes (reaction speed etc.) Several of the categories I would consider being covered under Strength in 5th and other editions as well.

Grace
To Hit Missile
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Disable Device (Generally Intelligence however.)
Escape Artist (Or Str - in 5e, contortion and such is Str-based.)

Reflexes
Armor Class
Dodge
Initiative
Movement Rate
Parry (or purely skill based.)

Strength
Acrobatics (combine with Athletics)
To Hit Melee
Movement Rate
Climb Walls
Parry (or purely skill based.)
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Precision: Ranged attack stats, Investigation, sleight of hands, crafting
Agility: (Initiative, AC, saving throw)

Str: Athletics, acrobatics
Con: (saving throw)

Acuity: Lore, Perception, Insight, Bluff
Willpower: (saving throw)
 
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payn

Legend
This roughly matches how Mutants and Masterminds 3e broke them out - Agility and Dexterity (as in hand-eye coordination). They also broke Strength out into Strength/Fighting to separate brute strength from ability to land a blow in melee. That's a bit more on-point for a superhero game, but the breakout of the two big combat stats seems to work pretty well.

Agility
Acrobatics
Armor Class
Saving throw
Initiative
Stealth

Dexterity
Disable Device
Sleight of Hand
To Hit Ranged (and melee if finesse)

Edit: Fairly importantly, the big offensive (attack roll) and defensive applications (AC, saves) don't sit with the same stat.
Yeap, whatever the name play, most folks seem to separate physical from skill in this exercise. Which is kind of why I was thinking let the skill system carry this weight but folks might want to old school and ditch skill systems.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
WARNING MY IDEA IS WEIRD

I like 4 physical stats and 4 mental stats. But I consider Perception and Senses as Physical

  • STRENGTH
    • Skills: Athletics, Weight Lifting
    • Attacking: Default to hit for Melee Weapon, Optional to hit for Heavy Thrown weapons
    • Defense: AC bonus when blocking with shield or great weapon
    • Carrying Capacity
  • DEXTERITY
    • Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand
    • Attack: Default to hit for Thrown Weapon, Optional to hit for Finesse Weapons
    • Defense: AC bonus when Parrying
  • AWARENESS
    • Skills: Animal Handling, Perception
    • Attack: Default for to hit Ranged Weapon
    • Defense: AC bonus in light or medium armor
    • Intiative
  • CONSTITUTION
    • Skills: Endurance
    • Attack: Default for Blood magic and Taint magic
    • Defense: AC bonus in heavy armor
    • Hit Points
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
If it were up to me, I'd split them thusly:

Strength:
Climb
To Hit (Melee)
To Hit (Thrown)
Damage (Thrown)

Dexterity:
Acrobatics
Armor Class (only when using the Dodge action)
Escape Artist
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
To Hit (Projectile)

Intelligence:
Disable Device
Initiative (quick thinking)

Not tied to any ability:
Armor Class (comes from armor)
Dodge (combat action, lets you add your Dex bonus if any to your AC)
Movement Rate
Parry (combat action)
 
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