Ignoring Marks & Triggering Combat Challenge

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

When it comes to fighters getting to use their Combat Challenge, under what conditions do they usually get to use their Combat Challenge? In general, I have a really hard time justifying an enemy taking an OA, i.e., ignoring a mark. So I'm wondering, under what circumstances does this usually occur?

Also, I think there was a Dragon Article that specifically dealt with this (i could be wrong), does anyone recall what issue?

 

[Mort_Q]

One very important detail:

Combat Challenge gives you a MBA, not an OA.

That said... it depends on the intelligence of the enemy.

If they're smart, them may know to shift instead of move to avoid an OA, and if they don't, and they live long enough, they should figure it out. Which means a smart enemy should shift.

Now an enemy technically knows that they're marked, but that doesn't mean they know they're marked by a Fighter, and that the Fighter has Combat Challenge. [edit] Just like an enemy can learn that it needs to shift, and enemy can learn that it shouldn't ignore that it's marked. [/edit]

Don't deny a Fighter their schtick! Sure, not provoking OAs, and not triggering CC, is what makes Fighters sticky.... but it's also fun to take OAs and CC MBAs... especially if the player has invested in feats that improve either.

 

[renau1g]

I'm with you Mort. This was why I got frustrated with my defender role in a RL game as the DM almost never, like I can recall on one hand, how many times he ignored my SM mark and I got to use my cool interrupt shielding power.

It depends on the creature as well. If a sorcerer is blasting it with impunity, the bucket of hp that is an Elite brute might take the hit from the fighter to get to the squishy, then drop an AP and try to finish him if the first one hits.

 

[Mort_Q]

Also, read this thread.

 

[Hazard_53188]

For intelligent enemies, I often choose to ignore the defender's mark when there is a bloodied PC within reach and the defender is not himself bloodied. I justify this by having the enemy realize that even if he takes damage now he'll save damage later if he can drop a PC.

For non-intelligent enemies, I often just have them attack who hit them last or hit them hardest but if no one hit them or they were hit by the defender, they'll go with the mark and attack the defender.

Anyway, definitely ignore the mark sometimes so the defenders can exercise their special marking feature.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Thanks. I guess I'm going to use knowledge checks more for monsters, as far as knowing any abilities associated with a given mark (and the possible consequences), dice are way less indecisive than I am; and, in general, use a "once bitten, twice shy," kind of approach, otherwise.

With dumb monsters, I just attack the closest possible target.

And make monsters more leary, in general, when the monster is bloodied.

 

[korjik]

Thanks. I guess I'm going to use knowledge checks more for monsters, as far as knowing any abilities associated with a given mark (and the possible consequences), dice are way less indecisive than I am; and, in general, use a "once bitten, twice shy," kind of approach, otherwise.

With dumb monsters, I just attack the closest possible target.

And make monsters more leary, in general, when the monster is bloodied.

Just take the shot and let the fighter have some fun.

let me amend my statement:
Unless it isnt really obvious that they shouldnt take the shot, just take the shot and let the fighter have some fun. If you feel the need to roll to see if they take the shot, then just take the shot.

CC comes up most often in my games whe someone provokes an OA by moving past the marked target. Ususally a rogue or ranger built to do that sort of thing. I almost always take the shot with the OA. It has a chance to damage the striker, making them spend a surge, and it gives the fighter some fun. It also makes combats quicker.

I dont usually play the monsters very smart, if for no other reason that it can get very un-fun. Technically, the monsters in a guard post should be soldiers, who immediately go on full defence behind cover, until reinforcements arrive. Smart, but frustrating for the players when they need 15 to hit and they know that they are about to get more bad guys to worry about.

Besides, it the players are working together, reward them. Dont make their tactics and builds worth less.

 

[Amaroq]

Yeah, I'm with korjik, et al, in the way I tend to play this.

As I said in that other thread - thanks for the link, Mort - I tend to divide my monsters, mentally, into about four categories. (* - in the other thread, I said three, but DracoSuave convinced me there's a fourth.)

1. Wise, experienced. That dragon? Yeah, he's faced a fighter before. Not only does he know how Combat Challenge is going to affect him, he may even have a plan for dealing with it pre-emptively. (Mmmm, must make sure to Daze that pesky fighter so I can get to the crunchy snacks behind him.)

2. Tactically savvy. A regiment of hobgoblins with a leader? They're probably likely to stand toe-to-toe with their marker, unless the leader orders them to ignore the mark and press on into the back line .. which he may have to do if the back line consists of strikers and controllers that are tearing his troops up.

3. Smart but inexperienced. That pack of wolves? They don't know the rules, they don't know what you can do on a mark .. but after triggering it once, they learn, and get a whole lot more wary of you. Depending on the level of intelligence, they may learn from their partner's mistakes or not: wolves would, but other animals might need to experience the pain personally to learn from it.

4. Dumb brute. My horde of mindless skeletons? They don't get the concept of a mark, they aren't smart enough to figure out that ignoring the paladin is hurting a ton because they're vulnerable to radiant, and they aren't going to learn from their mistakes. In general, they're there to make the paladin shine. Pun intended.

This was why I got frustrated with my defender role in a RL game as the DM almost never, like I can recall on one hand, how many times he ignored my SM mark and I got to use my cool interrupt shielding power.

IMHO, that's a bad DM. The DM has got to be able to separate "what I know" from "what my monster knows", and needs to play monsters with differing personalities.

I almost always take the shot with the OA. It has a chance to damage the striker, making them spend a surge, and it gives the fighter some fun. It also makes combats quicker.

Emphasis mine, and added - I wonder, seriously, if half of the complaints about "grind" come from players whose DM allows things to degenerate into a static toe-to-toe tough-it-out. Letting monsters trigger OA, CC, etc, really should quicken combats .. and monsters may well change their goals during the course of a combat.

I dont usually play the monsters very smart, if for no other reason that it can get very un-fun. Technically, the monsters in a guard post should be soldiers, who immediately go on full defence behind cover, until reinforcements arrive. Smart, but frustrating for the players when they need 15 to hit and they know that they are about to get more bad guys to worry about.

Oh .. oh that's too beautiful.

I may have to set up an encounter that's essentially Level-minus-2 guards in the guard post trying to hold on until the Level-plus-2 reinforcements can arrive, which ought to be right about the time the few remaining guards are on their last hit points ...

Maybe guard minions using Total Defense and Aid Another to defend each other ...



Thanks for the idea!

 

[renau1g]

Make sure those minions are hobgoblin minions to get the addition +2 AC for being adjacent to each other

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just a point:

from running the maths a while back it's still often advantageous to ignore a mark even if you're going to get smacked for it (unless the ignored mark will actually stop your action).

Specifically:
The more damage a defender does to you for ignoring a mark, the better it is to respect the mark.

The more survivable (defense, hitpoints) the defender has compared with whom he's defending, the better it is to ignore the mark.

The specific case was a high defense, high damage fighter compared with a defensively poor wizard: it turned out that the numbers were incredibly close as to whether to respect or ignore the mark. If the wizard was getting damaged by a second source, then ignoring the mark every round was definately the way to go.