Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Diggus Rex]

Yeah, reading the same rule quoted by irdeggman tells me how to resolve Featherfall in the example Deset gives. I found it on the SRD here, start of the second paragraph describing Immeditate Actions.

But you're acting like it's obvious that this is the rule, when it's not. As we're reading the text, it states that in combat, before your first action, you are flat-footed. It does not, on this reading, say anything about having a flat-footed status outside of combat. And personally, one of the main reasons I find this reading compelling is that there are so many ad hoc rulings that would need to be made otherwise, at least some of which would have been included in the rules had this been the way it was intended to work. If the flat-footed condition begins only when an actual combat starts, then none of these situational discussions need to be made. It may seem weird, but it's so much easier to adjudicate, I wouldn't think of playing it any other way.

Acting in combat ends flat-footedness. Combat ends. At the start of next combat, until you act, you're flat-footed. This strongly suggests (i.e. does not explicitly say) that flat-footed is the state of a character in between acting in combats.

A FAQ entry (5/23/07 pg.102), answered by a representative of the game's developers, supports this by stating attack-roll traps (which dont initiate combat) must hit the flat-footed AC of a target. It doesnt explain this as the trap acting like an unseen archer, but by a strict reading of the RAW.

What are some, or one, of these ad hoc rulings that need be made? Uncanny dodge works the same.

 

[Nail]

Acting in combat ends flat-footedness. Combat ends. At the start of next combat, until you act, you're flat-footed. This strongly suggests (i.e. does not explicitly say) that flat-footed is the state of a character in between acting in combats.

Exactly.

 

[mikebr99]

heh... full circle...

The way I am going to do it, is that everyone is always flat-footed, unless they make their spot/search check against something that is trying to attack them in some way... then the suprize round starts as normal. So, no immediate actions until you've acted.

Feather fall is the exception to this rule.

I also give all Rogues the auto search ability with respect to traps... similar to Elves and hidden/secret doors.

YMMV

Mike

 

[Diggus Rex]

Exactly, I always held that Blade the monk warblade can not use MoPC in the example Nail gives.

 

[irdeggman]

heh... full circle...

The way I am going to do it, is that everyone is always flat-footed, unless they make their spot/search check against something that is trying to attack them in some way... then the suprize round starts as normal. So, no immediate actions until you've acted.

Feather fall is the exception to this rule.

I still don't think you need to make feather fall the exception.

You just need to determine when to resolve how a character is falling. That will determine if they are flat-footed or not and can use feather fall.

You can't cast the spell on something/someone who isn't free-falling in the first place and since the duration is given in rounds it leads credence to the fact that the spell is not supposed to work outside of combat (or at least was designed to be cast in combat as opposed to outside of it like spells with time durations).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but in SW: Saga, you are only flatfooted when there is a surprise round and you have not acted yet. Otherwise, if combat starts normally, no one is considered "flat-footed". Might be an interesting house rule to adopt.

 

[occam]

"Blade" (a Mnk 2/ Warblade 6) steps on a Symbol of Insanity
(Will save DC 22) that he did NOT know was there. He is
surprised. He's not in combat. Initiative is not, and will
not, be rolled. Blade must roll a Will save.

Can he use an immediate action to initiate Moment of Perfect Mind?

I know our hero certainly hopes so! The manuever takes an immediate action to activate, and it allows him to substitute a Concentration skill check for a Will saving throw. Since his Concentration check is +25 - and you can't "auto-fail" a skill check on a natural 1 - if he can use the manuever, his success is assured.

BTW, how did Blade acquire a Concentration check of +25? I can figure up to about +22 (11 ranks, 18 Con, Skill Focus, Blade Meditation, amulet of health +4). I'm curious because I just created a warblade character, and am wondering how to increase her Concentration check further.

 

[Nail]

BTW, how did Blade acquire a Concentration check of +25? I can figure up to about +22 (11 ranks, 18 Con, Skill Focus, Blade Meditation, amulet of health +4). I'm curious because I just created a warblade character, and am wondering how to increase her Concentration check further.

Mnk (Undying Way) gives a +2 to concentration, and he has a magic item that does the rest.

Really, if you're a Warblade, there's no reason to NOT max out your Concentration skill. It's a no-brainer.

 

[SteveC]

I would suggest handling this issue one of two ways:

Either run your traps as Encounter Traps (i.e., they have an initiative score) or, more simply, having the characters roll spot or listen checks to determine if they were aware of the trap or effect going off in advance.

Frankly, I think the Feather Fall example being called out is a bad rule, because by the RAW it means you can't feather fall when you're surprised by a sudden fall, which is the primary use of the spell!

--Steve

 

[PaulKemp]

IMC, we treat flat-footedness as a relative condition that has applicability only in combat, i.e., it is a state that has in-game relevance only as between two combatants -- one is flat-footed as to the other, which results in certain consequences.

We base this on the language of the "flat footed" condition: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation.

Basically, we deem flat-footedness to be a term with no meaning outside of a combat. In combat, it serves to designate the respective states of one combatant to another. Outside of combat, it has no meaning.

This makes sense to us conceptually and makes for generally easy adjudication. Outside of combat, immediate actions can be cast at any time (since one is never flat footed, within the meaning of the term as defined in the rules). In combat, one may be restricted from casting an immediate action because one is flat footed relative to one's opponent. This does not mean that the flat footed PC suddenly went from alert (non flat footed out of combat) to lax (suddenly flat footed in combat). It simply means that within the context of the combat, the non-flat footed combatant is able to act more quickly, before the flat footed combatant can "react normally to the situation."

Works for us.