Improved Feint + Expert Tactician = ?

[Dagredhel]

Suppose a character has Improved Feint (1st level Gladiator ability from S&F) and the Expert Tactician feat. If the character makes a successful Bluff check (a 'feint') against an opponent (as a move-equivalent action,) can she use her Expert Tactician feat to gain a second attack against her foe?

Is there a feat that duplicates the Gladiator special ability?

 

[hammymchamham]

There is a feat in Song and Silence called "Quicker than the eye" which is pretty much the same as the Gladiator ability. And yes, you can use Expert Tactician. If they are denied a dex bonus against your melee attacks for any reason, you get your bonus attack

 

[Dagredhel]

So, a character who successfully feinted could make two attacks, both dealing Sneak Attack damage. Pretty sweet. What are the prereq.s for Quicker than the Eye? Any mechanical difference between it and the Gladiator ability?

 

[hammymchamham]

Quicker than the eye has a pre req of Dex 19+. You can use bluff as a move equ action opposed by a spot check, if you beat them, you get a partial action. If its an attack, they are denied Dex to AC, so if you had Expert Tacticion, you'd get your extra attack (and sneak attack if you have it). So yes, its like the Gladiator's ability.

Whats really nasty is if you're improved invisible (or blinking) when you have sneak attack and expert tactician.

 

[gariig]

Also Flick of the wrist is nice, too. Basically, you draw your weapon and they lose their Dex bonus. I hope our Ninja of the Cresecent Moon doesn't see Quicker then the Eye.

Gariig

 

[pingpong]

...

if you Feint, your opponent loses their Dex only for your next attack. so the extra attack from Expert Tactician wouldnt be a sneak attack.

 

[Dagredhel]

Re: ...

if you Feint, your opponent loses their Dex only for your next attack. so the extra attack from Expert Tactician wouldnt be a sneak attack.

It seems to me that your opponent has either lost his Dex bonus or not. If not, then Expert Tactician doesn't apply in any case. If so, then Expert Tactician does apply, and the extra attack it grants benefits from Sneak Attack.

 

[Trine]

He has lost his Dex bonus, and so you do benefit from Expert Tactician. He receives his Dex bonus after the first attack though, so an attack from Expert Tactician would not get sneak attack damage added to it.

The Feinting in Combat section is specific: "If you are successful, the next attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any)."

If the loss was intended to last longer than that it should have been worded better, or the sources containing the materials that rely on the Bluff skill should have had a clarification.

 

[Dagredhel]

He has lost his Dex bonus, and so you do benefit from Expert Tactician. He receives his Dex bonus after the first attack though, so an attack from Expert Tactician would not get sneak attack damage added to it.

The Feinting in Combat section is specific: "If you are successful, the next attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any)."

If the loss was intended to last longer than that it should have been worded better, or the sources containing the materials that rely on the Bluff skill should have had a clarification.

I certainly agree for the need for clarification. I had assumed, rightly or wrongly, that normally, on your next turn after a successful feint, you could make a full attack, with each attack receiving the benefit of Sneak Attack damage. Not so? By my reading, a full attack action constitutes your next attack against your opponent.

 

[Trine]

If it was your next attack action, then yes, that would be correct. It's just your next attack though, so it's only a singular attack. (Or three in the case of shuriken or two with Many Shot, but those are special cases.)

I'm pondering make the feint work with a duration of one round, but I'm not sure how well it would work out. The plus side is that it'd be very clear about just how long it would be in effect. The down side is that it might throw balance out of whack.