D&D General In defense of Shocking Grasp

[Tigris]

Is it better to save the 2nd level spell slot by casting a cantrip, missing, and then being stuck unable to get away? The biggest weakness of shocking grasp is that it does nothing on a miss, while disengage works almost 100% of the time. You're using up one of your cantrip slots to have the option to gamble on 1-4d8 of damage and run away 65% of the time, but do nothing 35% of the time instead of being able to run away. If being in melee with the enemy isn't a big deal, then you're probably better off using your action for a more powerful ability and just staying in melee or soaking the opp attack as you leave (which is only 1 attack). If it is a big deal, risking that 1 in 3 chance of miss (with ordinary stats you average around a 35% chance to miss) is probably a bad idea since you'll be in taking a full attack sequence if you do miss. It only affects one enemy, so it's not good if you need to stop multiple creature's opp attacks. It does allow allies to move without taking opp attacks from the target, but if multiple non-melee characters are getting stuck in melee against a single opponent you're probably positioning the party badly.

So I'd say it's a terrible choice as an emergency getaway - it just doesn't work 1/3 of the time against single targets and not against multiple targets. For an emergency, everyone has a resource less disengage, and low cost spells like fog cloud or darkness (blocks opp attacks from enemies without special senses, works on multiple enemies and protects allies) or misty step are generally better. It's fine as something to have fun gambling with in fights where you're not in serious danger, especially at low levels where level 1 and 2 slots are more precious, but that's a fairly limited use. It's not a bad spell, but it's hard to justify a cantrip slot for it.

You can still use misty step if this fails. So I agree its not too reliable in emergencies you still need an option B, but it does often save you a spell slot. And if you have some good bonus action spells it can even allow you to still cast a leveled spell this turn after getting away.

it is overall not thaat strong, I agree. I think it would be a lot better if you could do several attack rolls (like eldritch blast). Would get higher chance to succeeding and could even be used against several enemies.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

You can still use misty step if this fails. So I agree its not too reliable in emergencies you still need an option B, but it does often save you a spell slot. And if you have some good bonus action spells it can even allow you to still cast a leveled spell this turn after getting away.

If you disengage, you can always cast the good bonus action spell. With shocking grasp, about 2/3 of the time you'll do 2d8 extra damage (presuming tier 2) but 1/3 of the time you'll do no damage, not get the good bonus action spell, and spend a spell slot. If there's a good bonus action spell I'd like to cast, I think almot all of the time I'd rather simply disengage and cast it without the gamble rather than get an average of 9 more damage 2/3 of the time but also fail and burn a spell slot 1/3 of the time.

Also there are multiple ways to get a no-spell-slot misty step or equivalent by race (bunch of elves, githyanki, cloud goliath), feat (fey touched), or class (moon, dreams, and land druid, archfey warlock) or item (spell scrolls, ring of spell storing, enspelled staff or weapon) so using misty step as the emergency getaway button doesn't necessarily mean using a spell slot, that was just not something I included in the original post for brevity.

 

[CleverNickName]

White room can be useful for DPR. Thats about it.

I'm not even sure it's useful then.

The trouble comes from using the statistical average of results instead of the probability range. Your DPR should be a range of results, not a single number. "My orc does 22.33 points of damage on average every round" is true, but it's ultimately meaningless in practice because you aren't guaranteed to roll the average every time you throw the dice... in fact, 90% of the time you won't (on a d20). You could go the entire gaming session without ever rolling an average result.

But to @EzekielRaiden's point, saying "my orc does 12-30 points of damage each round, on a 66% confidence interval and μ=22" might be the truth, but that's not really useful either because it has 18 points of swing and nobody outside of a statistics classroom even understands what you're saying.

TL;DR: this is why D&D white room analyses make me itch.

The overuse of averages might be my biggest pet peeve, but it's hardly the only one. There's also the folks who just want to reduce everything to a single number to win an argument. And the Gambler's Fallacy, which I see at the table almost every Friday night.

Bob: Aw man, I rolled another nat-1! That's the third one tonight! What are the odds!?

Me: Still one in twenty, Bob.

 

[Horwath]

So basically, make all cantrips like Eldritch Blast?

I don’t think cantrips are that weak… obviously there are many scenarios where stronger options than cantrips exist, but that doesn’t mean there are zero scenarios where cantrips can help.

Notably, the limit of one slotted spell per turn means a Sorcerer with Quicken Metamagic is probably going to cast one slotted spell and one cantrip in the round. There are some other builds too that can make use of them…

yes.
and by having that, you can cast 2 or 4 later on, different cantrips as your Action, increasing tactical depth, well, as much as cantrip can give tactical depth.
and with 2 cantrips, maybe you can add sume utility cantrip(minor illusion) together with a single attack cantrip.

or as mentioned, shocking grasp, move away and then more damaging ranged cantrip(toll the dead?).
or spam shocking grasp is 1st failed to hit or you have 2 opponents engaged with you.

 

[Staffan]

I'm not even sure it's useful then.

The trouble comes from using the statistical average of results instead of the probability range. Your DPR should be a range of results, not a single number. "My orc does 22.33 points of damage on average every round" is true, but it's ultimately meaningless in practice because you aren't guaranteed to roll the average every time you throw the dice. You could go the entire gaming session without ever rolling the average result.

But to @EzekielRaiden's point, saying "my orc does 12-30 points of damage each round, on a 66% confidence interval" might be the truth, but that's not really useful either because it has 18 points of swing and nobody outside of a statistics classroom even understands what you're saying.

White-room statistical analysis has its place, but I agree that it is overused. Its main use is when comparing different options available to one character, e.g. "Is it better to take +2 Strength or Great Weapon Mastery?"

 

[Dessert Nomad]

White-room statistical analysis has its place, but I agree that it is overused. Its main use is when comparing different options available to one character, e.g. "Is it better to take +2 Strength or Great Weapon Mastery?"

I think that's a good demonstration of why it's so important for the theorycrafter to clearly state their assumptions. If you just do a DPR calculation, you can turn up that one or the other averages more damage in a simulated combat with that combat's assumptions. But if you're actually deciding whether +2 STR or Great Weapon Mastery is a better choice, you also need to look at the character's class and level, expected campaign length, and noncombat potential.

A fighter who's taken a strength feat at level 4 and is considering whether to take GWM or +2 STR at level 6 needs to consider what the meta game looks like. If it's for a one-shot or Adventurer's League (where you can rebuild between adventures) then you just look at what's best at the moment. But if it's for a campaign and you expect the campaign to last to level 8 and above, you also should consider which choice is better at level 8 when you pick your next feat. A fighter who takes something like GWM, Polearm Master, Mage Slayer at levels 4, 6, and 8 ends up with the same 20 strength at level 8, but has 3 useful STR based feats, while the fighter who took something at 4, then +2 STR at 6 ends up with fewer STR feats or wastes the +1 STR on their level 8 feat, so is behind the character who chose a feat at 6 instead of the ASI.

You also want to consider things like how common and useful the non-DPR parts of the options are - the +2 strength option gives you another +1 on strength skills and saves, and how useful those are depends on your assumptions. I would say that in most games they're negligible, but if you're in a game where you're frequently making STR checks getting a +1 on all of them might be significantly useful. (Like if you're the only STR based character and there's a lot of 'can we force this open' or 'can someone cross this chasm to run a rope so we don't have to blow spells to cross it' situations.)

 

[Zardnaar]

Nvrmind oops.

 

[Gorg]

One of my favorite Sorcerer/Wizard spells is Shocking Grasp. But whenever I read people’s spells rankings, it always seems to rank low on the Cantrip tier lists. So, I will attempt to make a case for it.

The biggest criticism I’ve read is that it’s a Touch spell and squishy characters don’t want to be in melee combat. True. However, sometimes melee combat comes to you, like it or not. In those instances, people typically recommend casting something like the Level 2 spell Misty Step to flee from your enemies.

But I feel it’s better to save the 2nd Level Spell Slot by casting a Cantrip, causing some damage to your enemy (1d8 per tier of play), and running away without provoking an Opportunity Attack. And since the enemy can’t make an Opportunity Attack until the start of their next turn, it might also allow for other squishy party members and/or NPCs to run away as well. I basically like to use it as an “oh %#*>” spell.

So there’s my argument in favor of an oft maligned Cantrip. I’m sure I’m overlooking something obvious (low number of Cantrips known, or something), so I look forward to the counter arguments to come.

I like to use it with my Eldritch Knight. You can cast a cantrip- then make a melee attack as a class feature. He is definitely NOT squishy, lol. And I enjoy the comedic flavor of electrocuting an opponent- then bashing him over the head for good measure! And at 7th level, 2d8 keeps up nicely with the longsword/axe, etc you'd normally be fighting with, so you lose nothing, really, damage output-wise. The second D8 simply replaces the ability bonus to damage.

It's too bad they got rid of the older edition thing of electricity (or spell touch attacks) ignoring armor- or being attracted to it, lol. "you like that full plate, huh?" Here- try this!

But for normal arcane casters, it is as you say- an ace up the sleeve, when you end up with a nasty mean guy in your face.

 

[Zardnaar]

I like to use it with my Eldritch Knight. You can cast a cantrip- then make a melee attack as a class feature. He is definitely NOT squishy, lol. And I enjoy the comedic flavor of electrocuting an opponent- then bashing him over the head for good measure! And at 7th level, 2d8 keeps up nicely with the longsword/axe, etc you'd normally be fighting with, so you lose nothing, really, damage output-wise. The second D8 simply replaces the ability bonus to damage.

It's too bad they got rid of the older edition thing of electricity (or spell touch attacks) ignoring armor- or being attracted to it, lol. "you like that full plate, huh?" Here- try this!

But for normal arcane casters, it is as you say- an ace up the sleeve, when you end up with a nasty mean guy in your face.

Problem is its keyed off your mental stat.

 

[Clint_L]

Bob: Aw man, I rolled another nat-1! That's the third one tonight! What are the odds!?

Me: Still one in twenty, Bob.

Well, given that he mentioned three in one night, let’s give Bob the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s not talking about the odds on that one throw, but rather the odds of rolling three natural ones divided by the number of throws on the entire evening.

For example, if it was his third roll of the evening and all were natural ones, Bob would have a right to be bummed. That’s a one in 8000 chance.