D&D 5E Initiative and Delay

[Mistwell]

Delay's been removed from the game for 5e, and it's been bugging my players.

Guys who roll high are getting frustrated that they cannot move their initiative lower. For instance, the rogue may naturally roll well because of their high dex, but want to wait until monsters and other players move to get the best chance at a sneak attack. Similarly the Wizard might want to wait for monsters to group together to attack a front-line fighter before sending off his fireball.

In some cases they can use the Ready action to accomplish these goals - but often they cannot. Often they need to both move and attack after seeing what others do, rather than just attack.

Why was Delay removed, and have others put it back in the game? Do you just let people lower their initiative count on their own? Am I missing an existing rule to deal with this?

 

[Paraxis]

I let my players delay. They can say they are acting after any other character has finished their turn, and the delaying characters initiative is reset to when in the turn order he acts. Simple, I have had no issues using this house rule so far.

 

[Xodis]

Not seeing an issue with this. If you roll high but want to wait a turn then wait a turn, you can still use that first action to prepare yourself, get into position, or go on the defensive that way you survive letting the monster come to you.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why was Delay removed, and have others put it back in the game? Do you just let people lower their initiative count on their own? Am I missing an existing rule to deal with this?

Delay was removed because changing the initiative around mid-encounter is time consuming.

It's simple to house rule Delay back in, but you might want to consider only doing it for round one. The concept of wanting to move, attack, and move again is pretty strong in 5E. Adding Delay to that makes sniping more potent than it was in earlier editions (e.g. I wait until a foe enters the room, I then come out of cover, fire my bow, then go back in behind cover again). Also, surprise rounds are now all of the PC/NPC actions, not just a standard action. Putting Delay back in also makes surprise rounds stronger (e.g. as per your example, the Rogue can wait until the Fighter moves up in order to get sneak attack damage in).


Actually, I am not DMing at the moment, but if I were, I would have to seriously think about it before putting Delay back in. It allows for a certain level of "time compression" that I've never really liked.

PC 1: "I delay"
DM: "Another Orc enters the room and fires his bow"
PC 2: "I rush over 30 feet before anyone else can react, and attack that Orc, and creating a bottleneck at the door."

Delay always felt cheesy and artificial that someone could wait, and then superspeed enter in before anyone else's normal reactions. I like the fact that they removed it both for simplicity sake, and for plausibility reasons.


I also like the current Ready not affecting initiative. A lot faster to handle.

 

[Mistwell]

Delay was removed because changing the initiative around mid-encounter is time consuming.

It's simple to house rule Delay back in, but you might want to consider only doing it for round one.

I am more asking...why wasn't that the rule to begin with? Most delays I encounter are in round 1 - where people find their high initiative is actual a disadvantage for them.

Delay always felt cheesy and artificial that someone could wait, and then superspeed enter in before anyone else's normal reactions. I like the fact that they removed it both for simplicity sake, and for plausibility reasons.

It's just changing your initiative to a lower count. There is nothing faster or slower about it.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

I see no problem allowing the high initiative character taking her action when it's most advantageous. It makes no sense to penalize a character for being extra alert/ready/whatever.

I want to see alternative initiative rules to get rid of cyclical rounds. I think that would help alleviate this problem.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Mistwell, I think the notion was to address one of the biggest complaints about 4e: slow combat. Combat in 4E tended to be a committee, where the players all set up cascading Readies and Delays to optimize each round.

5E strips all that away. You roll initiative, and you take your turn when it comes up. With no option to adjust initiative order, the game forces players to act, or not act.

Think about a football snap. The Safety rolls highest initiative. He's first off the line, already in motion. He has to make a choice right there--do I rush the QB, or do I cover my man?

That said, I think the Ready action should suffice to address your issue--note that it doesn't impact your initiative in any way.

If Ready doesn't suffice, then consider a houserule. Like, to let the player declare (before anyone rolls initiative) whether to apply his Initiative bonus as a positive or a negative.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I think there was a thread, here, somewhere that discussed delay being removed due to how it might affect ongoing saving throws v. effects where the saving throw is made on the character's turn. For example, delaying might allow another PC to intervene on the PC's behalf before the dire consequences of a probable failed save take effect.

 

[Thank Dog]

You want to delay? Ok. You don't do anything this round.

Simple.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am more asking...why wasn't that the rule to begin with? Most delays I encounter are in round 1 - where people find their high initiative is actual a disadvantage for them.

I told you why. 1) Because Delay slows up the game. 2) Because Delay mixed with the new rules on "move attack move" make those rules even stronger. 3) Because Delay mixed with the stronger surprise round (all actions instead of just one) makes the surprise round even stronger.

All three of these reasons apply to a "just allow Delay the first round houserule", as well as a "just put Delay back in houserule". The reasons are the same.


And, it is not a disadvantage to have a high initiative. It's part of the current situation. You turn, what do you do? I want to do x, but I cannot yet do it. For a wizard wanting to cast a fireball, an early initiative is great. For a rogue wanting to wait until the fighter gets into position, an early initiative (core rules without delay) is not great.

On the other hand, do you put in special rules for the wizard so that he can get the perfect positioning from his fireball? No. If the player playing the wizard either includes a PC or two into his fireball, or he is forced to get fewer foes, or to do something different.

I see no difference for the rogue. He is forced to do something different early on in the surprise or first round if he rolls well.

Things sometimes do not work out the best way for a given PC. I play a wizard and the battlefield is rarely exactly how I want it to be. I don't get frustrated about it (frustrated being the word you used to describe your players), I just deal with the situation as is.

So if I were the DM of your group, I would tell the players who want to Delay in 5E to either Ready, or deal with it. So what if the first attack of the rogue does not have sneak attack damage in round one. The current situation does not allow for that. Just like many other rounds for many other PCs. It happens all of the time.

It's just changing your initiative to a lower count. There is nothing faster or slower about it.

From a game mechanic POV, you are correct. A number is changed.


From a "It's my turn next, I will fireball those guys, opps, the delaying PC now ran in front of me" POV, it's weird. If one considers actions to be simultaneous like in the real world (which many people do, it's just artificially segregated into a game term called turns), then the delaying PC did not know when to move up and attack, but I was going to fireball with or without another foe in the area. In other words, I start my fireball, I'm casting it, another foe moves in, AT THAT POINT my fellow PC now knows to move, and he gets to move and act before I do, even though in a simultaneous world (i.e. real world), I would have cast my spell before he even took a single step because he had to wait for the new foe to show up before he decided to move and attack.

Delay has always been that way. Implausible and only in the game system for turn based game mechanics reasons. It's now removed for certain reasons and adding it back in actually makes some classes stronger than they are in the core system.