D&D 5E (2024) Is a 2nd Epic Boon Better Capstone cf 20 Levels in a Class via Multiclassing? [+]

[Tigris]

Have you seen Deadfall?

I did not, why?

 

[Zardnaar]

I did not, why?

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Im slowly reading it over several days.

 

[ECMO3]

When it comes to class Capstones the only one I would say is generally as good as an Epic Boon is the Bard's Words of Creation.

Some of the Paladin ones are better than most Epic Boons as Well, but it depends which subclass you have.

Wizard, Rogue and Ranger are truely awful.

The new 5.5E version of Wish makes the Cleric's Improved Divine Intervention capstione a lot weaker than it would have been with the 2014 5E version of the spell. The new version of Wish is pretty much unusable in combat for anything other than replicating an 8th level or below spell. And even out of combat if you know there will not be a fight for the next few days, there is still a pretty good chance that you roll bad and can never cast Wish spell (or use your capstone) again. So while Improved Divine Intervention says you can cast Wish, what it really means in play is you can cast a 8th level or below spell of your choice once every 2d4 days.

 

[Tigris]

When it comes to class Capstones the only one I would say is generally as good as an Epic Boon is the Bard's Words of Creation.

Ok as always how you value things surprises me.

Doubling a level 9 spell sure is good but it also means you need to cast a specific spell (making your level 9 slot lose quite a bit of flexibility if you want to get a benefit of the capstone) and another target needs to be in 10 feet.


Fighter gets + 33% damage as a capstone thats huge.

Monk gets + 2 to attack, +2 to damage, +4 to armor, +2 to damage prevented with reaction, +2 to dc of stun and subclass festures, +2 to dex saving throw, +2 to wisdom saving throw, +2 to initiative, +2 to wisdom skills, +2 to dexterity skills. This may be a bit boring but its huge.

Some of the Paladin ones are better than most Epic Boons as Well, but it depends which subclass you have.

Wizard, Rogue and Ranger are truely awful.

Rogue is a savety net. It helps with the worst case, to really make this one saving throw which would kill you, turn the miss against an important enemy into a crit. And its pretty much moment of prescience a level 8 spell (ok only one of the options but the better one) per short rest. And rogues profit more from crits than wizards normally.

If you are using a true strike rogue build and you miss and use this, its 28 d6 + 5+ damage once per short rest. Even without a magic weapon with a ranged weapon this is 103 damage. More than power word kill, on the main target not a secondary one.

And this is once per short rest. And you can also use it succeed on a important saving throw.


Ranger is horrible, wizard to situational, it is only good in really long adventure days with 2 short rests when you know you always want to cast these 2 spells.

The new 5.5E version of Wish makes the Cleric's Improved Divine Intervention capstione a lot weaker than it would have been with the 2014 5E version of the spell. The new version of Wish is pretty much unusable in combat for anything other than replicating an 8th level or below spell. And even out of combat if you know there will not be a fight for the next few days, there is still a pretty good chance that you roll bad and can never cast Wish spell (or use your capstone) again. So while Improved Divine Intervention says you can cast Wish, what it really means in play is you can cast a 8th level or below spell of your choice once every 2d4 days.

Well not only these restrictions, but using it also means you cant use your level 10 feature this day and for 2d4 more days.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok as always how you value things surprises me.

Doubling a level 9 spell sure is good but it also means you need to cast a specific spell (making your level 9 slot lose quite a bit of flexibility if you want to get a benefit of the capstone) and another target needs to be in 10 feet.


Fighter gets + 33% damage as a capstone thats huge.

Monk gets + 2 to attack, +2 to damage, +4 to armor, +2 to damage prevented with reaction, +2 to dc of stun and subclass festures, +2 to dex saving throw, +2 to wisdom saving throw, +2 to initiative, +2 to wisdom skills, +2 to dexterity skills. This may be a bit boring but its huge.




Rogue is a savety net. It helps with the worst case, to really make this one saving throw which would kill you, turn the miss against an important enemy into a crit. And its pretty much moment of prescience a level 8 spell (ok only one of the options but the better one) per short rest. And rogues profit more from crits than wizards normally.

If you are using a true strike rogue build and you miss and use this, its 28 d6 + 5+ damage once per short rest. Even without a magic weapon with a ranged weapon this is 103 damage. More than power word kill, on the main target not a secondary one.

And this is once per short rest. And you can also use it succeed on a important saving throw.


Ranger is horrible, wizard to situational, it is only good in really long adventure days with 2 short rests when you know you always want to cast these 2 spells.



Well not only these restrictions, but using it also means you cant use your level 10 feature this day and for 2d4 more days.

Interesting insight into capstones cheers. Wifecwas asking about the Bard one

 

[Tigris]

Interesting insight into capstones cheers. Wifecwas asking about the Bard one

Well bard one is really strong if a good situation comes up and triggers. A free cast (no action no spell slot) of a level 9 spell.


It is just quite a bit situational especially since (without the capstone) another level 9 spell like wish would be better for the situation.

 

[ECMO3]

Ok as always how you value things surprises me.

Doubling a level 9 spell sure is good but it also means you need to cast a specific spell (making your level 9 slot lose quite a bit of flexibility if you want to get a benefit of the capstone) and another target needs to be in 10 feet.

This is true, but as far as class capstones go, this one is the best IME.

Fighter gets + 33% damage as a capstone thats huge.

Yeah I don't think it is that big a deal, nor that much extra damage when all is said and done. They get 33% more attacks with their attack action, not considering masteries, but that usually does not translate into 33% more damage at that level. For example on an EK with a Longsword you are talking about 20-25% boost in damage. An EK with Scimitars and Dual Wielder it is like 10-15%

Monk gets + 2 to attack, +2 to damage, +4 to armor, +2 to damage prevented with reaction, +2 to dc of stun and subclass festures, +2 to dex saving throw, +2 to wisdom saving throw, +2 to initiative, +2 to wisdom skills, +2 to dexterity skills. This may be a bit boring but its huge.

In play IME it is not as effective as Words of Creation. Twin PWH is just freaking awesome. Not the best possible use of a 9th level spell in all circumstances but still awesome. Twin Power Word Kill is more situational but still 70ish damage to two creatures automatically with no save.

Part of this is just 9th level spells are freaking reality bending.

Rogue is a savety net. It helps with the worst case, to really make this one saving throw which would kill you, turn the miss against an important enemy into a crit.

Yeah part of the problem here though is you already have at least one epic boon, and on a Rogue that is almost always the Boon of Combat Prowess, so it is almost impossible to miss. Saves are a more common use, but a natural 20 does not always succeed on a save, and often won't succeed if we are talking about Constitution or Strength on a 20th level Rogue. A natural 20 will usually work on Dex, Int, Ch or Wis, but you also usually have Mage Slayer and these are covered by either Mage Slayer or Evasion, so how big a deal is a failure anyway?

I think every Rogue I have seen played at 20th level, including multiclassed, have taken Combat Prowess as their first boon. You could game this and not use Combat Prowess to get the critical hit on a miss instead of a regular hit, but then you are only really talking about making a normal hit into a critical once a short rest because your miss would have hit anyway. You also can't control when you miss, so even if you game it like this to get a once per short rest damage boost, it is not something you can plan and execute tactically.

You could also take a different Boon, but on a character who relies on attacking and making one big massive attack, that is a huge downgrade at level 19. Even at level 20, turning a miss into a crit once a short rest will not make up for just plain never missing.

In summary based on my experience in high level play, it is a good safety net, but the opportunity to use it effectively once a short rest or even once a day is just not really there IME.

 

[Silam]

Yeah part of the problem here though is you already have at least one epic boon, and on a Rogue that is almost always the Boon of Combat Prowess, so it is almost impossible to miss.

I think you bring up good points and clearly you have concrete experience with epic play, so thanks for sharing that with us.

That being said, while I have no doubt that things happened exactly like you described in the epic campaigns you played, I think there could still be some alternative builds and tactics worth exploring. It’s entirely possible these are less optimal than the builds you witnessed, but I haven’t played them nor ran the math on them so the reality is I just don’t know. Still, I thought it could be an interesting thought experiment, so here we go.

Saves are a more common use, but a natural 20 does not always succeed on a save, and often won't succeed if we are talking about Constitution or Strength on a 20th level Rogue. A natural 20 will usually work on Dex, Int, Ch or Wis, but you also usually have Mage Slayer and these are covered by either Mage Slayer or Evasion, so how big a deal is a failure anyway?

If defenses are a common issue, perhaps the Boon of Fortune’s Favor, allowing to re-roll a save once per round, might be a decent alternative for a 1st Boon?

I think every Rogue I have seen played at 20th level, including multiclassed, have taken Combat Prowess as their first boon. You could game this and not use Combat Prowess to get the critical hit on a miss instead of a regular hit,

I don’t think that’s "gaming" the system. The Boon of Combat Prowess clearly says you "can" turn a miss into a hit once per round, so it’s an option, not an obligation. It doesn’t say that’s what happens on the first miss of the round or anything automatic like that. That being said, while I believe it’s a legitimate usage, your next point is still valid:

but then you are only really talking about making a normal hit into a critical once a short rest because your miss would have hit anyway.

Moving on…

You could also take a different Boon, but on a character who relies on attacking and making one big massive attack, that is a huge downgrade at level 19.

Is it though? I guess it depends how hard to hit the enemies are, and thus how often the Rogue misses… but assuming a TWF setup yielding 3 attacks per round, yeah, there is certainly a good chance you miss at least 1 of the 3, and so Combat Prowess has a decent chance of kicking in regularly. But how likely is it that you miss all 3, and that Combat Prowess is the determining factor for landing the SA damage? Ultimately, that seems like what would matter most, right? That the SA damage lands and thus at least one attack lands. Going from 2/3 to 3/3 attacks that land is nice, but either way the SA is locked in already, so the incremental damage from the 3rd attack is not stellar (assuming no special stuff like an enspelled item of CME and a maxed out Moonblade dealing +3d6 Force damage).

What if we leaned into the 20s and went for the Boon of Irresistible Offense instead? Assuming 21 Dex, that’s 21 extra damage on a nat 20, which is not that far off from the 35 extra average damage of a 10d6 SA. So this Boon would mean that a nat 20 translates into an extra ~2/3rd of a SA worth of damage for the round. If you go crit-fishing with advantage on 3 attacks (and my math is not failing me) there’s a ~26% chance to get at least one 20 out of those 6 rolls. This is in the same ballpark (maybe slightly less) than the 1d6+6+magic weapon bonus extra damage you would get from a 3rd (non-SA) attack that hits instead of missing…

Even at level 20, turning a miss into a crit once a short rest will not make up for just plain never missing.

Ultimately, I agree that it’s not the most impressive capstone. I would argue it’s better than some (e.g., the Wizard’s) but it’s not stellar.

I was not trying to deny that, but rather try to explore whether Combat Prowess was really a must have versus some other options. Not for any character but, rather, specifically for the Rogue, which has this dynamic where it is very important to land one attack for SA damage, but landing one more non-SA attack is not necessarily as significant.

 

[Tigris]

Combat prowess on a rogue is not really that good. You dont care too much about single missed attacksy what you care about is at least 1 attack hiting for sneak attack.

2 of your 3 attacks only do 1d6 damage anyway. You have a lot of tools to gain advantage as a rogue (vex most common, but also subclass features or a bonus attack etc.).

Also magical weapons increase hit chance. With a +1 weapon and 2 attacks the chance to miss all attacks is already only 9% with a 3rd attack its 2.7% with the first attack having advantage its 0.81%


Rerolling the first attack happens 30% of the time (if you dont have advantage) and adds 9.5 damage. But doing so also makes you lose some damage. Because you just made it impossible for your snwak attack to crit. Which would have a 5% + 0.3 *5% = 6.5% so you lost 6.5% of 35 extra damage = 2.275 damage (or more if you have a weapon dealing +2d6 damage etc)


Rerolling the second attack only deals 4.5 damage and has a 0.7 * 0.3 chance and it does costs you a 5% chance that sneak attack crits so 1.75 damage

Rerolling the last attack has a 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.3 chance and deals also 4.5 damage


You also have (without advantage) a 2.7% chance to deal 35 damage (sneak attack).


So overall this adds 7.225 * 0.3 + 2.75 * 0.3 * 0.7 + 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.7 * 3.5 + 0.027 * 35 = 4.8905 damage.

This is the best case, if we have only a +1 weapon and no advantage.

Ideally as a rogue we want a more precise weapon and advantage and then this damage is even lower.


Meanwhile iressistable offense gets better the more attacks/advantage we have and does combo well with the rogue capstone.


With just 3 attacks it gives us a in average a 15% chance to deal 21 damage. That is 3.15 damage. But it also makes us bypass resistance. (Since boon of irresistable thingy can trigger on each crit ans nor once per turn) we can sum the chances up


And if we have advantage on 2 of the attacks vex etc) then the chance to crit is 24.5% crit then the damage is 5.145 damage. Which is higher than the combat prowess damage in the best case. And still interact well with the keystone and still removes resistance.

And in this good case the combat prowess would deal even less damage!

0.3 * 0.3 * (9.5- 2.2275) + (1- 0.09) * 0.3 * (3.5 - 1.75) + (1- 0.09 * 0.3) * 0.09 *3.5 + 0.0081 * 35 = 1.7227 damage.


And this is still only with +1 magical weapon and no elven precision.


So if the rogue player is playing well getting lot of advantage then the boon of irresistable offense is way better than combat prowess. Combat prowess is a fix for some unstable rogue builds, but then you had 18 levels where you have problems with hitting.

 

[BigMac75]

Not as much play experience as most of you so TIFWIW.

It definitely feels like since AU, a big factor that affects the potential for an Epic Boon is which Level 1 spells you have access to via your multi-classing since this affects how much you can optimized Boon of Magic School Mastery for your character.

Obviously not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but if you have access to Silent Image (or maybe Disguise Self), then isn't Simulacrum better than almost any combat or ability boost capstone? 2x DPR / actions is better than a guaranteed hit once per turn or even a 33% increase in DPR (actually you are losing level 17-20 so losing 2nd use of action surge + 4th attack but gaining a whole other fighter with 1 action surge and 3x attacks). Unlimited castings of Silent Image or Disguise Self is not a bad little bonus either...