D&D 5E (2024) Is the War Cleric Being Slept On?

[Not a Decepticon]

But low level spells, and you miss some of the high power martial options like the I cant die rage, or the "Saving throw passed anyway" fighter feature etc.

Which you'll miss anyway since the game will not reach the level when you get them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Which you'll miss anyway since the game will not reach the level when you get them.

Espicially with 4E combat length. Even with "fast" 30 minute fights (1 hour and 2 hour reports rolled in).

Real life time restraints are the main reason for lack of high level games imho. Its not related to edition although a complex one makes it less likely to get there (DM and/or players quit).

 

[TwoSix]

Tier 3 is the sweet spot for players and DMs willing to let go the reigns and their characters.

No attachments

In other words, play D&D properly.

 

[ECMO3]

I did not mean extra attack, I did mean dual wielding, but that does not even require the fighting style my bad, the weapon masteries on level 1 of a paladin are enough.

That is not going to keep up with a heavy weapon and Truestrike. It will beat it early, but not late in game.

Sure you can use a big weapon, but using 2 attacks is just better because it has a higher chance to hit (and crit).

But you are losing the extra damage from truestrike and you are accepting a lower Charisma and lower Constitition to drive strength or dexterity up and keep the damage competitive and you will have a much lower AOO (considering Warcaster). If you are using Truestrike you are pretty much SAD and pushing Charisma exclusively, on point buy your array probably looks close to one of these if you are optimizing for the combat pillar:

S13 D14 C14 I8 W9 CH17 for using medium armor

S15 D12 C14 I8 W8 CH17 for using heavy armor

If you make weapon attacks you are going to have to sacrifice Constitution to drive Dexterity higher if you go Medium Armor and Finesse weapons or sacrifice Constitution or Dexterity to drive Strength higher if you are playing heavy armor.

You don't have weapon masteries for nick, all the feats which could be useful are increasing dex or strength not cha. And there is no good way to get a weapon attack as a bonus action.

You have weapon masteries from your one level in Paladin and you have more slots for Divine Smite than a single class Paladin has. As far as mastery on this build I am probably using either Graze with a Greatsword or Cleave with a Greataxe and Push with a heavy crossbow (assuming you play with a 14 Dexterity).

You wouldn't use a bonus action attack because you would be using Divine Smite often.

I do agree that a second level of Paladin adds a lot between the fighting style and the spells. I think you wait until 7th level for it though (P1/B5 before leveling), that way you have short rest recharge on your psychic blades. If you do this it is a mixed bag - overall I think you are stronger at level 7-8, weaker at levels 9, 11, 13 and weaker at level 16+. You are about the same everywhere else after level 7.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Espicially with 4E combat length. Even with "fast" 30 minute fights (1 hour and 2 hour reports rolled in).

Real life time restraints are the main reason for lack of high level games imho. Its not related to edition although a complex one makes it less likely to get there (DM and/or players quit).

Anyone who thinks high-level 4e is more complex than high-level 3e is kidding themselves.

I've played high-level and even epic 3e. Single combats could take up the entirety of a session.

 

[Zardnaar]

Anyone who thinks high-level 4e is more complex than high-level 3e is kidding themselves.

I've played high-level and even epic 3e. Single combats could take up the entirety of a session.

Context to build combat resolved fairly fast.

It was quicker than 4E at normal levels. We didnt make it past lvl 7 so cant comment on higher levels but peopke were mentioning 1-2 hour combats.

Combat length early 4E was similar to high level 5.5. Around 30-60 minutes. It was similar to the old D&D minis game.

Combination of having to read powers for the players. Deciding how to use the powers(each PC has a few options)Anemic damage vs hp, keeping track of conditions etc.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Context to build combat resolved fairly fast.

It was quicker than 4E at normal levels. We didnt make it past lvl 7 so cant comment on higher levels but peopke were mentioning 1-2 hour combats.

Combat length early 4E was similar to high level 5.5. Around 30-60 minutes. It was similar to the old D&D minis game.

Combination of having to read powers for the players. Deciding how to use the powers(each PC has a few options)Anemic damage vs hp, keeping track of conditions etc.

What are "normal levels"? As far as I can tell, there are no such things.

And of course you'd think 3e is fast if you never played beyond level 7! That's like saying you've never played AD&D past level five, so therefore spells can't POSSIBLY be broken in it.

Come on, Zardnaar. You're now also--very literally--making the argument that because players weren't familiar with their own characters that that's a fault of the system. Please. If the players aren't familiar with their own character, if they legit have to constantly re-read their own character sheet just to play, that's not a fault of the system. That's a fault of the person playing it.

It is no harder to remember the contents of your character sheet as a 4e player than it is as, say, a Bard player in 3.5e or 5e.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Watching a snail run a marathon is faster than a round of combat in 3e!

 

[Zardnaar]

What are "normal levels"? As far as I can tell, there are no such things.

And of course you'd think 3e is fast if you never played beyond level 7! That's like saying you've never played AD&D past level five, so therefore spells can't POSSIBLY be broken in it.

Come on, Zardnaar. You're now also--very literally--making the argument that because players weren't familiar with their own characters that that's a fault of the system. Please. If the players aren't familiar with their own character, if they legit have to constantly re-read their own character sheet just to play, that's not a fault of the system. That's a fault of the person playing it.

It is no harder to remember the contents of your character sheet as a 4e player than it is as, say, a Bard player in 3.5e or 5e.

Harder than 3.5 fighter. Every player needs power cards or phb to know what their powers are. We only had 2 phb. I wasn't the players BTW just observing as DM.

I recently ran the 5.5 starter and things ran at a decent flip with complete newbies. One didn't even know the dice very well. She was complete newb.

Normal levels 1-10. We played 3E up to level 30 and several high level games some over. Mostly creating characters that high vs getting there. Think we hit 15ish doing it that way.

3.5 was about right for modern D&D with hit points vs damage. For casuals anyway. If your edition, game, movies anything really loses casuals youre in trouble. I noticed this in 2002 (university groups and events) most other groups weren't playing 3E like forums expected. They were playing like 2E at a casual level. Our group knew about forums etc but weren't doing what forums expected either.

But hit points also didn't matter in some cases. That did actually speed things up. 3.0 played faster than 3.5. More complexity slows D&D down along with hit point bloat. 3.0 slowed dow level up it didnt slow fombat down to much. They just added ability scores to 2E monsters in a lot of cases.

If your players cant grok your system or have fun with it youre in so much trouble. 4E other big problem is most D&D players aren't into tactics. You can do similar things in 5 with zones, forced movements, weapon masteries etc but it's rare. Can be fun sometimes just not all the time.

Casuals won't go for that level of tactics and complexity. Some veterans will. Theres 3/7 in my group who can, 2 who are maybes. Of those players they've played 5, 7, 16. 23 and 33 years. 1 enjoyed 4E, 1 did not, 2 haven't played it and of those 2 1 actively dislikes tactical stuff she likes the social pillar, puzzles, world building. Last ones me I can enjoy it occasionally as a but not DMing it constantly.

Comment was made recently (were playing 4E") I run a cariety of encounters and that one was on 3D terrain, hazards, ones etc. Sometimes its a 30 by 20 room low encounter.

 

[Silam]

Didn’t read the 18 pages of the thread and it seems the last page has veered firmly off-topic, but anyhow, I’ll throw this tidbit in here:

In a game we’ve played from levels 1 to 3 so far, the War Cleric is clearly the MVP. Bless, cure, wacks enemies on the head and even spends reactions to make teammates also succeed in wacking enemies on the head… and a tank to boot (took the path which gets armor prof), this truly is the full package.