Large Group Campaigns

dreaded_beast

First Post
I'm starting a campaign this Friday with a group of 8 players, although I only expect around 5-6 to show up regularly.

Lucky for me, the players informed me that they would prefer a more 'hack-and-slash' campaign. Not that I think that play style is easier or better, it's just good that the players have told me what campaign they want, instead of me trying to figure it out.

I'm concerned about speed of game play and giving everyone a fair amount of time to do their actions.

Since this is larger than the assumed 4 group party, does anyone have any suggestions regarding running a game with a large group? Any comments regarding the type of game and the concerns I have in relation to a large group?
 

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My group right now is 6 players (which is big for me) and I suggest that you give the party a patron of some sort. This individual will send them on "missions" or "quests" and will cut down considerably on the sort of dithering and debating on the best course of action that seems more common in a larger group. It will give them focus.

I also suggest that you politely but firmly make the group understand, "Hey, we've got a lot of players in the group this time and when it comes time for combat we need to keep things moving." Then implement some sort of "timer" system. Use a minuteglass and each person has that long to take their actions or they go on "Hold" until they make up their mind.

One other tool that I found helpful to cut down on the ammount of "book flipping" for the spellcaster types is to go to the SRD and cut and paste all the spells or psions from their repertoire into a single text file that you can print and put into some kind of binder. This really sped things up for the spellcasters in our group.

Obviously you'll need to step up the challenges this group faces. CR+2 will probably be a fairly easily beatable challenge for them in general. Keep in mind that if you want to challenge them with low level critters that you'll need to use a LOT of them. And you'll also want to establish some sort of easy but consistant way of dealing with absent players.
 

"We want a lot of combat"

"Ok, but to speed things up with this many players, I'm going to need to institute a 15 second rule on combat turns. You have that much time to make a decision. If you don't, then you do nothing and I move on to the next player."

"WHAT???"

"Hey, look at it this way. With eight players, it really means that you have a couple of minutes to figure out what you're going to do next. Get to know your character and what s/he can do and it won't be a problem!"

"But, but, but..."

"Do you want to spend all night on one combat?"

++
Then follow up with a huge first battle involving all of the PCs and a horde of Kobolds or Goblins. Lots of enemies, lots of choices, a lot going on. (I also like those kinds of combats because it gives everyone a chance to shine by killing an enemy or two - even the Wizard should be able to drop a couple of Kobolds with spell and crossbow).

Stick to your guns during this first combat and let them see how it flows. If they complain heavily or certain people have a lot of problems, let them heal up and restock, then hit them with a similar combat where you let them take as long as they like - which will probably be the rest of the session. Make sure to time the combats, then discuss how long each combat took, including how long it took for each round.

Make a note of people who didn't make any effort to pay attention until it was their turn. If they are the ones complaining, point out in front of everyone that they had all the time in the world and chose to spend it screwing around and not paying attention. "Hey, you could have been figuring out what you wanted to do while Fred and Bob were doing their moves, but you were reading your book every time." Let peer pressure take care of the rest and move on.

Then negotiate with the entire group, discounting the slackers. More time for decisions? Fewer combats? What do they want now that they see how it's going to work? Don't let the screwoffs control this negotiation. Deliberate ignore them and concentrate on speaking to and listening to those who paid attention. They're the ones who are going to be leading the group and driving your storylines.


Beyond that, don't let the sessions get bogged down in one person, or even partial party efforts. If Roy the Rogue goes off to do something while the rest of the group cools their heels, you can spend some time on it, but not half the session. Likewise if Suzy Shopper wants to spend half the night role-playing a trip to the market, that's something to put the kibosh on, unless you have significant encounters planned there. Sure, that means glossing some things over and maybe upsetting the player, but better one miffed player than seven others bored out of their skulls.
 

Chimera said:
Beyond that, don't let the sessions get bogged down in one person, or even partial party efforts. If Roy the Rogue goes off to do something while the rest of the group cools their heels, you can spend some time on it, but not half the session. Likewise if Suzy Shopper wants to spend half the night role-playing a trip to the market, that's something to put the kibosh on, unless you have significant encounters planned there. Sure, that means glossing some things over and maybe upsetting the player, but better one miffed player than seven others bored out of their skulls.

I agree with Chimera, especially this part. I'd strongly suggest putting together a website or Yahoo group and trying to take care of the "book keeping" outside the game session. Insist that all shopping and character maintenance be done during the downtime between sessions.
 

Rel said:
Obviously you'll need to step up the challenges this group faces. CR+2 will probably be a fairly easily beatable challenge for them in general. Keep in mind that if you want to challenge them with low level critters that you'll need to use a LOT of them.

But also be careful to not use encounters with monsters with too high CR!
When adjusting EL for large parties it is better to increase the amount of monsters they meet, rather than pitching in single monsters with higher CR.

It is also easy to think that as your party is twice as many as a standard party they can take care of twice as many monsters, but that depends a lot on how the terrain looks!
If the terrain is cramped so that only two of them can fight and the rest are limited to supporting those two, it can be difficult.
Similarily if the terrain is too open, a large horde of smaller critters can easily surround the party and get to the wizards.
 

Henrix said:
But also be careful to not use encounters with monsters with too high CR!
When adjusting EL for large parties it is better to increase the amount of monsters they meet, rather than pitching in single monsters with higher CR.

It is also easy to think that as your party is twice as many as a standard party they can take care of twice as many monsters, but that depends a lot on how the terrain looks!
If the terrain is cramped so that only two of them can fight and the rest are limited to supporting those two, it can be difficult.
Similarily if the terrain is too open, a large horde of smaller critters can easily surround the party and get to the wizards.

Gotta agree with this. I'd rather face a number of lesser difficulty creatures than one of a significantly higher level. All too often the differentials can add up quickly.

For an example, one of my co-players recently suggested that our 6 player 3rd level group attempt to take down a Green Hag, reasoning that she's only CR 5 and we have SIX 3rd level characters. Well, she's AC 22 and has two melee attacks at +13. So she's tough for us to hit but can rip right through our armor. She also has a strength drain attack that can reduce our melee fighters to mewling babies in short order. Upon review, he changed his mind. Instead we're going after the group of Orcs and Ogres.
 

Chimera said:
Gotta agree with this. I'd rather face a number of lesser difficulty creatures than one of a significantly higher level. All too often the differentials can add up quickly.

:cool: A few sessions back out then party of five 4th level characters decided to head over towards a large encampment of giants (hill giants for the most part). Our first encounter was 2 hill giants and 4 ogres I believe. We made it, but due to the situation we had enough time to prepare before setting off and had a strategy in mind when encountered them (as well as the subsequent hill giant, ogre and goblinbear patrols we faced later). We were a well equipped party though and I am sure that also helped in addition to us formulating a strategy for these potentially overmatched battles.
 

I DM a group of six.
Time per person per combat is not really an issue with my group but I will say make sure you up an encounter enough to be challenging.
It took me a while to find out how much to increase the enounter and until you do your group will walk over some of the things you throw at them. Of course YMMV ;)
 

KB9JMQ said:
It took me a while to find out how much to increase the enounter and until you do your group will walk over some of the things you throw at them. Of course YMMV ;)

Normally I pick a critter that looks tough for the group. Then I throw about 2-3 times as many of them at the party as I think will be challenging. Once I've gotten the encounter to the point where I'm almost certain that one or more PC's will die, I know it is about right.

My players are very resourceful. ;)

(Note: The above formula, used long enough, will get you invited into the Rat Bastards Club. :D )
 

A few tips from out game of eight players (now seven, but still...)

1. Make sure your players know their characters and what they can do. Anything they can do to have the information they need for their actions is a good thing. My wizard has a printout of all his spells, divided by level, so I don't have to flip through X dozen books looking for the text. At the minimum, the players should list a book and page reference.

This knife cuts both ways, though; as DM you have to know what your NPC's can do. Use index cards to track a monster's important numbers (AC, hp, attack and damage) and maybe a couple of notes on any special abilities you think will be used* You can use the card to track things like the damage the creature takes, or any penalties (like if your ogre barbarian gets hit by a ray of enfeeblement for a -4 to Strength, you can just jot down "-2 attack/damage")

* Noting special abilities is important. I've seen too many DM's post here saying that their planned challenging encounter was a cake-walk for the PC's because they forgot to use a critical ability of the monster's.

2. Make anything that affects most or all of the group very visible. For initiative, we have a magnetic strip glued to a piece of plastic about the size of a yardstick. Each PC has a double-sided paper marker attached to one of those little metal binder clips, which sticks to the magnet strip. We also write in each PC's Dex score, to quickly resolve initiative ties. There's also markers for "Villain 1" through "Villain 8", an "Ally" card (for friendly NPCs), and a "Guest" card (if someone invites a friend to play). After setting this up at the beginning of combat, there's no question of initiative orders, and hopefully people can see well ahead of time when their action is coming up, and will start to prepare.

Along the same lines, for any whole-party buffs we use a lot (Inspire Courage, Haste, Bless, etc), we've made up large table-tent cards with the relevant modifiers printed in large text so everyone can see them. Although recently I've been thinking about switching to smaller cards, and printing several copies to hand to each player.

3. Get your players to help each other. Not just with the peer pressure stuff mentioned before, but by recognizing that players, just as much as characters, have their strengths and weaknesses. In our group, we have one or two people who are not good at math, or at least, not fast with it. But they choose to sit next to, and ask help from, other players who are good at math when it comes time to figuring out their attack bonus with Haste, Inspire Courage, flurry of blows, and four points of Power Attack**. Similarly, some people are better at spatial reasoning, and might appreciate some help when figuring out where to center their spell templates.***

As an extension to this, encourage the players to fight as a group, rather than as individuals. Games that utilize group tactics seem to go smoother, as there's no toes being stepped on. There's few things as frustrating as when your fighter has their attack all figured out and ready to go, with a fistful of d20's and damage dice ready to roll all at once to save time... and on the initiative before yours the wizard disintegrates your opponent. I'm not saying that the wizard should never help take down an ally's foe, but if the fighter was obviously not having much trouble handling their opponent, the wizard could have chosen a different target, or even a different spell.

One way to facilitate group cohesion is through allowing metagame talk between players in combats. Some DM's will wince at this, I know. In our game, there was little meta-talk allowed between characters at the early levels, but more as we advanced; the rationale was that as we fought together for so long, we started to develop things like code phrases and signals to let each other know what was going on, a few standard procedures that were followed in certain situations, and just an overall better feel for each other, an ability to read body language that told us things like "I'm badly wounded", "I'm about to blow something up", or "something's wrong".

** Telling you to have other players help with figuring attack bonuses may seem to contradict the advice that players should know their own character's abilities, but there's a difference between "I don't know how to do Power Attack" and "I know how to do Power Attack, but I can't add and subtract fast enough."

*** I know some people don't like having other players help with placing templates. I see it as a metagame solution to a reasonable dilemma; my wizard character will be more familiar with the use of his spells than I am, and his greater expertise can be reflected by the advice given by fellow players. Besides, in a large game where keeping things moving is important, would you rather have the player debate for 2-3 minutes on where to center the fireball without help, or have someone point and tell them "put it here"?


4. Make sure everyone understands the need for keeping things moving. There's no point in introducing all these aids and house rules if people have no idea what they're supposed to accomplish. It should also be understood that no matter what you do, D&D combat will take a long time, especially as levels and options increase. In our game, we ended up ditching the standard model of "X encounters of your CR per session", and our adventures tend to have bigger, grand-melee type final battles with little building up. The DM has had to make adjustments to his style (he can throw tougher things at us, for one, because we're coming into the final battle with more resources that 'expected') but it works for us.

One final thought. I've seen the "decide your actions in X time, or you skip your turn" advice given a couple of times here, and in other threads. If you feel this is harsh, try geting people to use Delay as a default. In other words, if they don't have an action ready on their turn, then they automatically Delay until after the next person in the initiative sequence. This gives them a little more time to think, without losing their action. The consequence of not coming up with an action is that you keep moving down the list, never getting a turn, until you do.
 

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