Legal Mystic Theurge build?

[Abstraction]

I am about to start in an online arena game, so naturally I want a seriously munched-up character. By my reading, it seems that I can build a Sor1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X legally by starting as a Sorceror and taking the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane. This is obviously way-munchkin and I would never allow it in a home game. But is it legal?

Thoughts?

 

[jodyjohnson]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=339046

Note Richard Baker's response (WotC Dev)

We're going to issue a little clarification on this soon. Here's the deal: It doesn't count for qualifying you toward a prestige class. Our (thin) rationalization is that you can't consistently and successfully cast 2nd-level spells, because you're "reaching" with that caster level check.
__________________
Rich Baker
Senior Designer
Roleplaying R&D
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Not officially changed but some sort of clarification on it is in the works.

 

[Thanee]

Pretty much the same explanation as why Anyspell doesn't work for Prestige Class requirements... they simply didn't think about it and forgot to put some limiting factor in there, which prevents this abuse.



Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Our (thin) rationalization ...

At least you can't blame him for not being honest in a subtle way at least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, the point is moot anyway. If you look closely at the wording of the MT, you'll see that levels in MT add only to spells per day, not spells known. So a sorcerer/Mystic theurge never learns any new spells.

Incidentally, neither does a wizard/mt, but at least he can add spells off scrolls. The real question is, does a cleric/mt get new spells known when he gains higher level spells? A strict RAW reading says no.

 

[Knight Otu]

If it is the same wording in Complete Arcane as it is on the website preview, you might be able to twist its wording around so that it doesn't fulfill the prerequisites of the MT.

Precocious Apprentice

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
​

Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1
​

Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.
​

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.
​

You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
​

Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character

The second underlined sentence indicates that you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, despite the second level spell you can cast unreliably. Otherwise, gaining the first benefit would automatically cause you to get the second benefit, losing the first one.

But I guess that is an even thinner rationalization.

 

[ARandomGod]

They lie, THEY LIE!!!

You can obviously do it. Or, if you want, only take one level in each, and get a higher level character to cast "imbue with spell ability" on you. Sure, why not? I mean, the MT is pretty weak. (Of course, this strengthens it too much, but hey).

Anyspell works too. They're statements to the contary are patently just paTHEtic attempts at rationalization, in order to attempt to keep you from realizing that you can.

Well, the point is moot anyway. If you look closely at the wording of the MT, you'll see that levels in MT add only to spells per day, not spells known. So a sorcerer/Mystic theurge never learns any new spells.

Incidentally, neither does a wizard/mt, but at least he can add spells off scrolls. The real question is, does a cleric/mt get new spells known when he gains higher level spells? A strict RAW reading says no.

Yea... no way man. While the above was just me being arguementative, sorcs definitely get new spells per day. I mean, if you read those words, not only do they not get spells known, but they never learn to cast higher spell levels either. Hence you have to accept the various discussions that it works the way it's meant to. There may even be FAQ's or something about it. But if you need those you also need wayy too much help with imagination IMo. And your Darkness spell probably creates light.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Knight Otu,

Reading the rules that closely leads to nonsense. For example, it leads to an Ur-Priest losing all class abilities the moment it takes its first level; the divine casting disqualifies it. 10th level Dragon Disciples have a similar problem, as do many monsters who take the Survivor class from savage species. This is one of my pet peeves; I have mentioned it before on these boards and on others.

A strict reading says that a +1 spellcasting level doesn't increase caster level; the formula says that spells known and spells per day increase. So a 5th level wizard/ 5th level Incantatrix casts 5d6 fireballs, according a strict interpretation of the rules.

I believe that a FAQ or errata has stated that wizards still get 2 new spells per level. That seems a legitimate reading of "spells known." But the caster level question has not, I believe, been addressed.

Oh, and do the +1 spellcaster level ability stack with the same ability from another class? We assume so, but that is not what a really strict reading of the rules requires.

I think they should reword the benefit so it grants the ability to cast a spell for a minute a day, or something (the character makes a level check to successfully activate the ability for 1 minute). They could say that a temporary ability doesn't meet class pre-req requirements.

 

[Iku Rex]

Knight Otu,

Reading the rules that closely leads to nonsense. For example, it leads to an Ur-Priest losing all class abilities the moment it takes its first level; the divine casting disqualifies it. 10th level Dragon Disciples have a similar problem, as do many monsters who take the Survivor class from savage species.

You have it backwards. Close reading of the rules avoid that kind of nonsense.

It is nonsense for a feat with special mechanics depending on your ability to "cast 2nd-level spells" to constitute "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" from the moment you get it. It is self evident that this isn't how the feat works.

 

[ARandomGod]

Yes.. I understand... the ability to cast second level spells is clearly not an ability to cast second level spells. That is, indeed, obvious...

(OK, everybody, big smile, I've already made the call... just back away slowly and noone will get hurt.)

Yes. You're completely right.