Lethal and Nonlethal Combat

[ender_wiggin]

4E doesn't seem to have rules on handling lethal vs. nonlethal damage. A character can always choose to knock his opponent unconscious or kill him.

This causes some minor problems in games that I run. For example, sometimes I run a fight in which the flavor is very gritty and lethal -- the assailants are using knives and mauls and other lethal tactics (as are, presumably, the PCs) on a fast-paced, dimly lit battlefield. Yet for one reason or another, the PCs find it more convenient to keep their opposition alive (for interrogation, if nothing else), and so they choose to knock them unconscious at every point possible.

In essence, my problem is that I having trouble having opponents "fight to the death". It's a flavor issue more than it is a dysfunctional one. Any suggestions?

 

[mach1.9pants]

I would go for 2 things:

1. (use rarely) DM fiat: 'your blow to knock him unconscious is too effective and he collapses, dead'.
2. Make the character roll a skill check or something to see if they accidentally kill the enemy. Vary the check and DC to keep it interesting.

 

[jdcash]

You could also have the player roll a death save for the creature - i.e. make the save to keep the creature unconscious instead of dead. Just a thought.

JD

 

[Ryujin]

4E doesn't seem to have rules on handling lethal vs. nonlethal damage. A character can always choose to knock his opponent unconscious or kill him.

This causes some minor problems in games that I run. For example, sometimes I run a fight in which the flavor is very gritty and lethal -- the assailants are using knives and mauls and other lethal tactics (as are, presumably, the PCs) on a fast-paced, dimly lit battlefield. Yet for one reason or another, the PCs find it more convenient to keep their opposition alive (for interrogation, if nothing else), and so they choose to knock them unconscious at every point possible.

In essence, my problem is that I having trouble having opponents "fight to the death". It's a flavor issue more than it is a dysfunctional one. Any suggestions?

If they knock out an opponent too early in the fight, then have him brought back up with a healing surge. If that happens a couple of times, then they'll be knocking out fewer opponents.

 

[Garthanos]

4E doesn't seem to have rules on handling lethal vs. nonlethal damage. A character can always choose to knock his opponent unconscious or kill him.

Remember every attack until that last one really isn't 'hitting' in some ways the damage is being well minimized... with luck and energy/spirit and skill. (if it does high damage it was relly difficult to avoid and used a lot of energy and luck etc.) Hitpoints are not wounds... if you want accidental npc deaths because it is obvious the pc's aren't being careful when you would like them to think about it. You might need some more house rules to cover the contingency (like some of the suggestions people are making and critical hits could be another source.)

You could inform the players they can reflavor text there attacks in less lethal ways to avoid those accidents and that will encourage them to think about it.

In real life it is very hard to garantee an attack that was meant to knock somebody out isnt going to really hurt them... you are reducing a cinematic aspect of D&D. But you could also say if that last attack does over a certain amount of damage making it non-lethal isnt an option.

 

[ender_wiggin]

If they knock out an opponent too early in the fight, then have him brought back up with a healing surge. If that happens a couple of times, then they'll be knocking out fewer opponents.

This is a damn good idea -- consider it stolen.

However, this won't work for BBEGs, or other villains that are the last to go. Nobody is around to revive them. Any ideas concerning that?

 

[Nurgle84]

However, this won't work for BBEGs, or other villains that are the last to go. Nobody is around to revive them. Any ideas concerning that?

Yes. There is a ritual called Soulguard. You cast it on a willing target or yourself who then spends a healing surge. If this character dies before the end of the day, he instead regains hit points of his surge value. No you just need a delayed variant of this ritual. (lets say, after three rounds) Not unreasonable that a powerful guy tries to get this ritual or at least some scrolls of this to be prepared for a difficult fight.

The alternative: If the BBEG is just a henchman of another BBEG use another ritual. I call it "Dispose Minion". When the BBEG is interrogated, he can use a keyphrase (or the BBEG in the background, who watches the interrogation via another ritual) to instantly kill the prisoner. This way, the prisoner can give some hints, but before the important things he just dies in some spectacular way.

 

[ender_wiggin]

That's an interesting method, and I certainly expect to use it a few times. Thanks for the advice. I remember reading a story hour where they party faced assassins that had poison sacs at the back of their throats, and whenever captured alive they would just bite down and kill themselves.

Yet this is only a ploy I can use a few times before it gets trite. Realistically not every powerful opponent the party faces is going to have a way to kill themselves (or to revive themselves) in case the party decides to interrogate them.

So with that in mind, who else has an idea?

 

[Goumindong]

Tell them that you're changing the rules and that anyone they want to keep alive they have to stabalize as normal. This isn't a big deal for that one guy at the end of the fight, but the ones that go down before that may be another issue(if they die before the end of the fight to be stabalized)

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

Next idea: PCs have one round after defeating an enemy to administer a DC (15?) (20?) Heal check - or even more interesting, use a power! - to stabilize the fallen foe.