Longlongspear?

[CRGreathouse]

I was considering the possibility of making a larger spear for characters to use in my campaign. It would use the same stats as normal members of the spear family (1d8/x3), but would have reach 15' (but not 5' or 10').

If I did this, how do you think it should work?

* Attack penalty when the shaft can't be braced?
* Useable from horseback?
* Exotic or martial?

I'm leaning toward a martial weapon with a -6 attack penalty if it can't be braced (e.g. on a soldier's shoulder in the line in front of you), and a -2 penalty if you brace it (because it's unwieldy).

 

[Dark Mistress]

In real life they where called pikes and would reach nearly 20ft in length, they where used pretty much exclusivly for defense against calvary. most pike men was also equiped with a sword for close in fighting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

 

[CRGreathouse]

In real life they where called pikes and would reach nearly 20ft in length, they where used pretty much exclusivly for defense against calvary. most pike men was also equiped with a sword for close in fighting.

Yes, I'm familiar with them. While the pike is what I'm trying to simulate, I thought "longlongspear" was a better thread name... no?

In any case, what do you think about the stats?

 

[Pyske]

Well, it'll make formation fighting that much more important. PCs tend to be mixed groups, so it will likely make the enemies more powerful.

Not that spear formation fighting isn't already pretty powerful: You solo charge the front line of a spear formation in the current rules, you're looking at potentially drawing 15 attacks, 10 of which deal double damage. Add your pike rules, and you increase that to 35, with 21 at double.

Of course, it gets a lot easier once all those AoOs and readied actions have been soaked up, or if they have to be split among multiple people, but that's still an awful lot of damage potential.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

 

[nikolai]

My suggestion would be just to make a pike a longspear with a 15 ft. reach (or 20 ft. for a really long pike). Martial, not usable from horseback, don't worry about bracing.

One problem with this is the ability to whirl it around to attack anything three squares away. You can get away with this with most of the reach polearms, which were 5-7 ft., but it gets a bit ridiculous with larger weapons. Having carried it into your typical dungeon corridor, you would not be able to turn it around! Adopting facing rules could solve this, but that is an added layer of complexity you may wish to avoid.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Mongoose did the pike in there Quin fighter book.

Pike 1d10, crit 20 x3, weight 17, length 20ft

Like most other weapons used for charges or to repluse them it does double dmg, and can't be used on anyone closer than 10ft.

I thought that was a bit simplified for a pike myself...

as for your rules I would up the dmg, I see no reason why it couldn;t be used as a improvised lance the diffrence isn;t all that great. I would give it no penality when the weapon is braced for attacks.(though realisticaly you can only leave it braced to recive a charge after that you couldn't really leave it braced and make attacks at moving targets) I think -6 is a bit harsh for unbraced(since you already can;t attack those under 10ft from you) I think maybe a -2 at 15ft, and -4 at 10ft(when at shorter ranges more of the shaft is behind you making it more likely to bump things ect) or you could switch them around(arguing that the weight would make it harder to wield at 15ft)

And I would make it a martial feat, it really isn't a complicated weapon to attack with, no more so than most martial weapons.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Thanks, everyone!

Mulling over all of this advice, combined with the realization that the spears are Simple weapons in 3.5, I've decided on Martial, 1d8/x3, 15' reach, and a -4 penalty if unbraced (braced, not readied -- it needs to be steadied on something or it's absurdly heavy and unwieldy).

nikolai -- Yes, it will be virtually unuseable in dungeons. That doesn't bother me.

Pyske -- Agreed, formations get stronger. It just goes to show that charging into melee with an army is a bad idea (for small groups).

Dark Mistress -- Thanks for the QF information! I agree on the improvised lance bit; there's no real reason to complicate mechanics needlessly.

 

[robberbaron]

No way you could reach 20' with a pike.
To balance the thing your back arm would be at full stretch behind you so it would only protrude about 15'-16' in front of you.

As for bracing, if you brace the weapon, you limit your ability to move it in reaction to the enemy, so -4 sounds about fair.

There is also no way you could use it against anyone within 10', unless you are in the second or third rank. Perhaps, with some minor penalties for the ranks in front hampering your movement (-2 in second rank and -4 in third?)

It would also be far too unwieldy to perform any of the cool fighter moves like Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc.

Take all this from one who has fought with a pike.

 

[Dark Mistress]

No way you could reach 20' with a pike.
To balance the thing your back arm would be at full stretch behind you so it would only protrude about 15'-16' in front of you.

true enough, though with no practical experince of my own. The only effective way i could see wielding one would be to brace the end against the ground and kneel/stand on the end while holding onto the shaft a couple of feet up with your hands. (the long wooden spears in Brave heart)

 

[scholz]

I might add something about AOOs, like a peson with a Pike is effectively a ranged opponent and does not threaten any squares. If they want to attack a charging (or otherwise closing) opponent, they need to ready an attack. True this makes the Pike not very useful, but I think threatening 30+ squares is pretty effective.

So they would pretty much only be effective to stop a cavalry or similar charge. I think increasing the damage, or threat range might be appropriate for the weapon given that.

There are some real problems with taking something like that into a dungeon, 10ft hallways will be a bitch for turning around.