Magic scope and scale

[Greenfield]

When our current campaign began, I included a clash of armies.

A Roman Legion has about 5000 men. I laid it out as a line of 1000 footmen with shields, a line behind them with spears and a third line with long spears. That left me a few thousand for reserves, officers, cohort of archers, etc.

The enemy wasn't as well organized, but just as numerous.

In short, a battle line nearly a mile long, with a battlefield depth of nearly half a mile.

The reason for this, aside from just the grandeur of an armed conflict on that scale, was to emphasize why Wizards don't rule the world. Fireballs are all well and good, but a circle of destruction 40 feet wide is a drop in the ocean in a conflict of that scale, and even the battle hardened veteran spell caster run out of spells in the first 10 minutes of a battle that will last all day.

So, what level do you think a spell or caster should be before they start to cast Slay Army type spells?

I ask this for a reason: I came across a spell which, as written and with no rules lawyering or feat-stacking, seems to strongly resemble Slay Army, or Raze Town. It's in a WOTC book, not some third-party power fest, and while the range is oddly expressed (40 ft/level, as opposed to the traditional "Short", "Medium", or "Long"), I don't think it's a typo.

It's 6th level. Should a 6th level spell equal Slay Army?

 

[Buugipopuu]

Given how much effort one has to go to to cast Apocalypse from the Sky, the only sub-epic anti-army spell of which I know (it's a 9th level spell that deals Wis damage just for preparing it, and more Wis damage when you cast it, for 10d6 damage in a miles-wide radius (including yourself, which means more drawbacks)), I'd say the intent is not for casters to be able to single-handedly slay thousands without some serious drawbacks.

I suspect the spell you're referring to is some variant on Control Weather, or similar large-scale environmental control effect. Control Temperature can be quite nasty when cast with a high caster level and underwater.

 

[Greenfield]

You're almost kinda sorta right, in a way.

The spell is Sandstorm. As written it allows you to change the speed of prevailing winds by one category per three caster levels.

There are only four categories listed in the spell, so presuming that the prevailing wind falls into some category to begin with, a 9th level caster could take the wind speed from zero to 175 mph Tornado, the highest rating. The minimum caster level for the spell would be 11th, so in essence the spell gives absolute control over wind speed, as a minimum.

The radius is 40 ft per caster level, so at the minimum level to cast the spell you have an area 880 across (I looked in the backs of all the books, but I can't seem to find the 880 foot diameter area template. Can you help me out? ). In addition to the basic wind effect, the spell does continuous damage to anything exposed. At that wind speed, it uproots trees and destroys any structure that isn't fortified, so "exposed" pretty much describes every living thing after the first round.

The ongoing damage isn't huge, just a dice per round, but the spell causes visual obscurement, makes verbal communication impossible in the area, and puts a huge penalty on even knowing which direction to go in to escape the area. Oh, and it makes movement by anything less than Collossal in size pretty much impossible, so you might be blown around in circles for a few hours, but actually escaping the area isn't actually possible, short of a Teleport effect.

Duration is 10 minutes per level, so one dice of damage per round, ten rounds per minute, ten minutes per caster level, 11th level minimum to throw it, means 1,100 dice of damage. Minimum.

Cities wiped, huge chunks of a battlefield slain, damage and destruction on a scale that can only be called epic. (In that I know of no non-Epic spell that can match it for sheer destructive power.)

Note that, while the winds alone won't do in a castle or other fortified structure, over a thousand dice of damage will probably cancel your security deposit.

Seems like huge overkill for the spell level.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I looked through Spell Comp., the SRD, the Planer Handbook, the PHB...couldn't find the spell, so I can't comment on the RAW.

Your question triggers that red flag: Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it was a good idea.

What is the bar for an author getting a spell in a WotC book? How many people need to approve it and do you think there is any semblance of robust quality control with regards to consequences and effects on the game? Remember, people are only going to buy splat books if there's something worth having in them. As an examble, how many peopel are going to buy a "Book of Weapons" in which none of the weapons do more damage than a longsword?

Here's one question you should be asking yourself: what is the natural evolution of war in a world in which one side could potentially field this type of spell caster? When nuclear weapons were invented, the humans dropped two of them in an actual battle and they have NEVER been used since. There mere threat of nuclear weapons has deterred many conflicts. The raw devastation of them has deterred their use.

Another question you can ask is when Gods get into battles, do they ever use army slaying type of magic?

Finally, if armies can field army slaying spell casters, then a big part of any battle would be taking out the army slaying casters before you commit ground troops. Most generals are not going to send men to get slaughtered. Same reason the US uses A-10's and AH-64's to take out tanks and bunkers before sending in the ground forces.

The hardest challenge for me as a DM is determining natural consequences of things existing in D&D that don't exist in our world.

 

[Greenfield]

The Sandstorm spell is from the book Sandstorm <gasp>.

As for generals fielding spell casters of such levels...

It really depends on your game world.

According to the old World Builder's Guide, the average person was a 1st or 2nd level commoner. For a city to have even one character of 12th level required a major metropolis, with absolutely no guarantee that they'll be a caster capable of throwing this kind of spell.

Now different DMs use different world models. Some have societies where everyone is 12th level, and a CR 14 is considered weak and 2nd class (and yes, I'm speaking from experience as a player). Others follow a less, shall we say, heroic model.

I was just asking, in general, at what level should spells and/or spell casters be able to dish that kind of damage over that large an area?

I'm sure some of our resident "experts in the ridiculous" could geologically destabilize an entire tectonic plate with a 3rd level character.

Over all I'm starting to get the feeling that the entire Sandstorm book was written without adult supervision.

 

[kitcik]

Sorry, but my answer is "it depends" - on how common the DM wants someone with that kind of power to be in their world.

If I were DM, I would make 11th level casters very rare, such that a 6th level spell with that power isn't the end of the world (literally).

 

[the Jester]

My 2e and 3e games include this spell, which is pretty much the bottom rung of 'slay army' type effects in my campaign (this is the 3e version):

BROADBLAST
Evocation
Level: Sor/wiz 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1000' + 50'/level
Area: 200' radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell was designed by Delphinate wizards to slay masses of troops, even entire armies, from a great distance. It creates a huge blast of magical power. This blast deals 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage to each creature within the area. its advantage (rather than high damage) is that it affects a huge area and is devastating against large concentrations of low-powered troops.

 

[bloodtide]

I was just asking, in general, at what level should spells and/or spell casters be able to dish that kind of damage over that large an area?

6th level should be about the level that spells should start to become large scale. Such as weather control. Though the spell should not, by default, be that powerful, but it can scale over time. Sandstorm, for example, might work better if you could increase the wind for every five levels(or at least something like 'for every 3 levels once this spell is gained'.)

Controlling weather on a battlefield(or anywhere) is a big deal. This is after all one of the big, big, big UN no nos. All members agree to 'not attempt to control the weather'. A fantasy world could have similar agreements, not to mention divine agreements. Maybe the gods would keep a leash on the druids. Or maybe the druids would not want to effect the weather as it might have bad effects(the same reason they don't do it in the real world).

Also in a fantasy world, there would be defenses vs weather type attacks, and mass magic attacks in general.

 

[Arrowhawk]

The Sandstorm spell is from the book Sandstorm <gasp>..

<smile>

There really should be an XP counter for snark. My first response was a replied to your original thread, the one where you had not mentioned the actual spell name or the book you got it from. You just said some WotC book which was not third party.

So I looked for a "Slay Army" spell and could not find it. During that time, it looks like your second post came through, before my first. It is completely for natural for you to think I was responding to your second post, which is why I smile at the snark. I pointed out that I could not find the spell (Slay Army) merely to say I could not find it and so I could not comment on the actual spell. But you seem to take any opportunity to sharpen that stick, Greenfield.

Had I known you'd make an issue of it, I would have edited to my post to point out that my response was out of sequence, but I didn't think it was something you'd even notice or bother responding to.

 

[Arrowhawk]

The Sandstorm
I was just asking, in general, at what level should spells and/or spell casters be able to dish that kind of damage over that large an area?

Let me refer you to Greenfield's response:

As for generals fielding spell casters of such levels...

It really depends on your game world.

In all seriousness though, there is no right answer because there's no way to prove an answer is correct. The problem has no closure. So my response is focused on dealing with the plausibility/continuity issues of it existing in the first place. Whether it's 6th or 9th level, I would think through how would army battles evolve as a result of either side having used slay army level spells in the past.

Over all I'm starting to get the feeling that the entire Sandstorm book was written without adult supervision.

Harsh.