D&D 5E (2024) Martial Magic Items Thoughts?

[Silam]

or like, instead of a magic weapon itself you find a one-use magic patch that you can slap on any appropriate weapon to imbue it with that enhancement.

That is fine in the abstract but does not necessarily make sense nor solve the deeper issue…

The proposal is similar to tomes and manuals which are consumable and grant +2 to a stat. What’s wrong with those? Well, it almost never makes sense for an enemy to be carrying that kind of item around, only for an adventurer to kill them and loot them. The incentives would dictate that the enemy should use the consumable and benefit from it themselves.

The patch on a weapon is slightly less problematic than the tomes of stats because at least the patched weapon can still be looted (whereas you can’t loot someone’s already enhanced stats). But, if the enemy patched their greataxe and you wanted a dagger, then you’re back to square 1: the weapon is not the type you wanted.

Unless you meant that the patch is removable, and so you can take it off the greataxe and stick it on your dagger? If that is the case, then it solves the versatility issue. Whether it’s a nice enough flavor of magic for a fantasy setting, I don’t know.

There could be other similar variants of this solution too, e.g., magic comes from a gem on the hilt of a weapon. You can pay a blacksmith to scavenge the gem from a weapon and install it on a new one, and that costs less than enchanting from scratch. So it’s not as pedestrian as a sticker, and carries inertia, but still achieves the transferability goal.

 

[Maxperson]

i thought it was fairly common knowledge that had come out in an interview or something? i know it's been mentioned in discussions on here a good few times

Bounded Accuracy. It has to do with numbers. The game numbers(ability checks, to hit numbers, etc.) only take the character class abilities into account. Magic items that add bonuses or advantage are not assumed to be possessed, and no particular stat bonus(or penalty) is assumed to be present.

A lot of people will claim that the game is balanced around having a 16 in your prime stat, showing some percentage of success to hit creatures as evidence. That's an incorrect assumption on their part as we know from what the designers have told us that only class abilities are taken into account.

Also, in the 5e DMG the Sword and Sorcery description says that in that type of game, magic items are rare and often dangerous, indicating that limiting magic items offered is okay regarding game balance, since no other advice is offered to balance out the fewer magic items.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That is fine in the abstract but does not necessarily make sense nor solve the deeper issue…

The proposal is similar to tomes and manuals which are consumable and grant +2 to a stat. What’s wrong with those? Well, it almost never makes sense for an enemy to be carrying that kind of item around, only for an adventurer to kill them and loot them. The incentives would dictate that the enemy should use the consumable and benefit from it themselves.

The patch on a weapon is slightly less problematic than the tomes of stats because at least the patched weapon can still be looted (whereas you can’t loot someone’s already enhanced stats). But, if the enemy patched their greataxe and you wanted a dagger, then you’re back to square 1: the weapon is not the type you wanted.

Unless you meant that the patch is removable, and so you can take it off the greataxe and stick it on your dagger? If that is the case, then it solves the versatility issue. Whether it’s a nice enough flavor of magic for a fantasy setting, I don’t know.

There could be other similar variants of this solution too, e.g., magic comes from a gem on the hilt of a weapon. You can pay a blacksmith to scavenge the gem from a weapon and install it on a new one, and that costs less than enchanting from scratch. So it’s not as pedestrian as a sticker, and carries inertia, but still achieves the transferability goal.

oh yeah it wouldn't work on enemies, but how often do you loot your magic weapons directly off someone else? (genuine question) i was more thinking more as in for use in treasure chests, hoards and rewards.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Bounded Accuracy. It has to do with numbers. The game numbers(ability checks, to hit numbers, etc.) only take the character class abilities into account. Magic items that add bonuses or advantage are not assumed to be possessed, and no particular stat bonus(or penalty) is assumed to be present.

A lot of people will claim that the game is balanced around having a 16 in your prime stat, showing some percentage of success to hit creatures as evidence. That's an incorrect assumption on their part as we know from what the designers have told us that only class abilities are taken into account.

Also, in the 5e DMG the Sword and Sorcery description says that in that type of game, magic items are rare and often dangerous, indicating that limiting magic items offered is okay regarding game balance, since no other advice is offered to balance out the fewer magic items.

sorry i'm not quite sure how that follows from what i was saying?

 

[Maxperson]

sorry i'm not quite sure how that follows from what i was saying?

It has to do with your comment about folks saying magic items are not essential. Magic items with bonuses are not essential at all, since the game doesn't take them into account with regard to balance. Further, because they aren't taken into account with regard to balance, including them will make PCs stronger than the game assumes them to be. That and the completely unnecessary rush to a 20 in prime stat is probably why a lot of people talk about needing to fight things 6 CR above their level to get a challenge.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Like with a lot of the rules and assumptions in the various 5E games... whether something "sucks" or is "overpowered" is going to greatly come down to the particular DM and how they run their game. Sure, some tables might need more magical weapons and armor handed out to martial PCs due to how the DM sets up encounters (in strength, in number, in amount)... but other DMs will run their games in such a way that martial characters without magic items do not suffer any noticeable difference to how they expect combats to go and whether all PCs contribute. Speaking personally... I've never heard anyone at my tables complain that they were underpowered or that another player was overpowered based upon magic item distribution, probably because I follow my own gut on what I suspect all the players would like and need.

This is one of those situations I think where all WotC can do when writing the rules is pick a lane and then let the individual DMs decide if they want to travel in a different one.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It has to do with your comment about folks saying magic items are not essential. Magic items with bonuses are not essential at all, since the game doesn't take them into account with regard to balance. Further, because they aren't taken into account with regard to balance, including them will make PCs stronger than the game assumes them to be. That and the completely unnecessary rush to a 20 in prime stat is probably why a lot of people talk about needing to fight things 6 CR above their level to get a challenge.

okay, but i was never claiming that the bonuses from magic weapons were essential, it was the magic damage granted by the weapon to bypass nonmagic resistance was, which, given i said the designers originally were assuming would come from a caster concentrating on Magic Weapon(spell) for their martial, follows that they thought magic weapons themselves 'weren't required'

 

[Maxperson]

okay, but i was never claiming that the bonuses from magic weapons were essential, it was the magic damage granted by the weapon to bypass nonmagic resistance was, which, given i said the designers originally were assuming would come from a caster concentrating on Magic Weapon(spell) for their martial, follows that they thought magic weapons themselves 'weren't required'

Why do you say that the designers assume that such resistances will just be bypassed in one way or another? There's no point in giving a monster a resistance at all if you're going to assume that it does nothing.

 

[TwoSix]

The game literally directly rewards it. Someone who takes the Duelist fighting style cannot benefit from a magic two-handed weapon. Someone who takes Thrown Weapon Fighting gets nothing from a greatsword.

This isn't "players might like specialization". The game tells you to specialize. That's why we have Fighting Style feats in the first place.

Sure, but this is a case where the game is following the audience. Players want their martial types to specialize in a weapon, because most martial exemplars in fictional inspirations also utilize a chosen weapon. And 5e, at its core, is about enabling player vision for their characters.

So you have a clash between game expectations of wild-west loop dropping, where you have a lot of randomized drops a la Diablo or roguelikes, and players are expected to adapt to the dropped items, and the curated character expression of bog-standard 5e.

What I think a majority of players are seeking is a comfortable synthesis between the two, where you keep the excitement of random loot drops, but characters can still utilize those drops to eventually outfit their character according to their vision. ARPGs like Diablo and Path of Exile excel at this approach, but D&D just kind of nibbles at the edges with magic item crafting rules in a DM-focused addendum, rather than a robust player-facing toolkit for turning unwanted loot into wanted powerups.

 

[Silam]

oh yeah it wouldn't work on enemies, but how often do you loot your magic weapons directly off someone else? (genuine question) i was more thinking more as in for use in treasure chests, hoards and rewards.

Well… if we consider the sources of magic items being loot, crafting and purchasing, I would say my personal experience over the last few decades is heavily tilted (probably 99%, if not even more) towards loot.

I like the aesthetics of crafting but in practice my DMs never allow much time for it.

If you want to break down looting in terms of whether it’s looted from the gear an enemy was using versus the hoard a dragon was using as a pillow for sleeping on… I don’t know. I’ve never considered these to be distinct categories in my mind so I haven’t been tracking it. Though if I try to think back on it anyway, I would say probably most of the looting my characters have done was from worn gear and less from dragon pillows… but I’m not sure, to be honest.