Mass Combat rules

[Primitive Screwhead]

Back here [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] suggested we move this discussion off to this forum.. so here it is!

I'd love rules in epic for wading through armies and taking out a hundred men per round, like Sauron in the prologue of the LotR movies.

Right now you can kinda do it. You might face Kratos and his Spartan legion. Kratos would be an equal-level elite enemy, and the legion would be represented by twelve equal-level, gargantuan-size minions. But I feel like it could be handled it bit better.

Hey RangerWickett!
My suggestion is to use UNIT rules similar to the SWARM rules.

Unit of 10 = +6 Levels (size: Huge)
Unit of 100 = +12 Levels (size: 10x10 squares)
Unit of 1000 = +18 Levels (size: 30x30 squares)
Unit of 10,000 = +24 Levels (size: 100x100 squares)

e.g.
Basic Orc = Level 3 Soldier
Unit of 1000 Orcs = Level 21 Soldier

As a rule of thumb, UNIT commanders will be 5 levels lower than the UNIT itself (before RANK adjustments).

e.g.
Unit of 1000 orcs (Level 21) would be commanded by an orc of Level 16

Alternately you could convert the 1000 orcs (Level 21) to a Level 12 Solo Soldier and make the commander a Level 12 Elite.

I have been working on some simple rules and modifiers for things like Routing, Terrain Advantage and Charismatic Leadership. But I think the entire ruleset could be done in 2 pages or less (discounting UNIT examples).

This way you can have both Mass Combat rules that are easy to use AND run individual heroes (or villains...or monsters) vs. armies of foes.

S'Mon Swarm rules


24th level Platoon attached on my post based on S'Mon's rules here


So... to continue the discussion, respond here!

 

[pippenainteasy]

So 10,000 orcs vs 1 PC is like fighting a Level 27 monster thats 100 x 100 squares and has 1 attack?

 

[S'mon]

Well, since May I've noticed that the official terminology for a swarm of medium sized creatures is 'Throng'.

 

[S'mon]

So 10,000 orcs vs 1 PC is like fighting a Level 27 monster thats 100 x 100 squares and has 1 attack?

Orcs in a typical throng should occupy 1 square per 2 orcs IMO, so it would take 20,000 of them to fill 100x100 squares. I wouldn't recommend units much above 10x10 = 100 squares, ie a company of 200 infantry - anything bigger won't fit on the typical game table, and that's already an Epic threat if you preserve XPV. Platoons of 32 orcs (4x4) make a decent Paragon threat.

The throng will normally have an Aura that automatically attacks anyone entering it or ending their turn within the aura, representing a bunch of orcs hacking at the character. It may have a standard action melee attack in addition, representing a particular focus on one enemy, but does not really need one IMO; a move action 'trample' is probably a better bet, since a trample can attack multiple foes. A force with 15'-reach awl pikes could have a pretty decent blast-3 melee attack, though.

Missile throngs should have an area-burst missile attack of similar size to the throng itself, eg a 5x5 missile throng (50 archers) should have a burst-2 attack, which also covers 5x5 squares. A poorly disciplined missile throng might have a large, weak area burst attack, a well disciplined throng might have the choice of a narrow/small-area, powerful attack or a wide-area weak attack - the former is effective vs enemy leaders & units, the latter would be good to pick off a bunch of dispersed enemy minions. But defaulting to unit size = burst size should work well.

 

[S'mon]

A search of the Rules Compenndium only turns up 2 Throngs, plus the Abyssal Ghoul Horde that's really a Throng.

Throng #1:

Bloodspear Savage Throng
Huge natural humanoid (swarm), orc

Level 9 Brute
XP 400
HP 117; Bloodied 58 Initiative +6
AC 21, Fortitude 22, Reflex 21, Will 20 Perception+4
Speed 6 Low-light vision
Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 10 to close and area attacks
Traits
Swarm Attack Aura 1
Any enemy that ends its turn in the aura takes 4 damage.
Swarm
The swarm can occupy the same space as another creature, and an enemy can enter its space, which is difficult terrain. The swarm cannot be pulled, pushed, or slid by melee or ranged attacks. It can squeeze through any opening that is large enough for a Medium creature.
Standard Actions
Mob of Swinging Axes At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); +14 vs. AC
Hit: 2d12 + 4 damage.
Savage Frenzy Encounter
Attack: Close burst 1 (enemies in the burst); +14 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 8 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Miss: Half damage.
Move Actions
Trample Recharge when first bloodied
Effect: The savage throng moves up to half its speed and can move through enemies’ spaces during the move. Each time the throng enters an enemy’s space for the first time during the move, it makes the following attack against that enemy.
Attack: Melee 0 (enemy in the space); +12 vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + 5 damage, and the enemy falls prone.
Str 20 (+9) Dex 14 (+6) Wis 11 (+4)
Con 17 (+7) Int 9 (+3) Cha 10 (+4)
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Common, Giant

Throng #2:

Zombie Throng
Huge natural animate (swarm, undead)

Level 9 Brute
XP 400
Initiative +2 Senses Perception +8; darkvision
Swarm Attack aura 1; the zombie throng makes a mob of crushing blows attack as a free action against any enemy that starts its turn within the aura. While the zombie throng is bloodied, it makes a zombie grab attack instead.
HP 121; Bloodied 60
AC 21; Fortitude 24, Reflex 18, Will 20
Immune disease, poison, fear; Resist 10 necrotic; takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 5 radiant, 10 against close and area attacks, 20 against critical hits
Speed 4
Mob of Crushing Blows (standard, at-will)
+12 vs AC; 2d8+5 damage.
Zombie Grab (standard, at-will)
+10 vs Fortitude; the target is grabbed. Attempts to escape the zombie throng's grab take a -5 penalty.
Zombie Mess Grab (standard, recharge
Close burst 1; targets enemies; +10 vs Fortitude; the target is grabbed. Attempts to escape the zombie throng's grab take a -5 penalty.
Alignment Unaligned Languages -
Str 18 (+8) Dex 6 (+2) Wis 8 (+3)
Con 21 (+9) Int 1 (-1) Cha 3 (0)

Horde:

Abyssal Ghoul Horde
Huge elemental humanoid (swarm, undead)

Level 21 Brute
XP 3200
Initiative +16 Senses Perception +13; darkvision
Swarm Attack aura 1; the abyssal ghoul horde makes a melee basic attack as a free action against any enemy that starts its turn within the aura.
HP 240; Bloodied 120
AC 30; Fortitude 34, Reflex 33, Will 29
Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic, half damage from melee and ranged attacks; Vulnerable 10 damage from close and area attacks
Speed 8, climb 4
Horde of Fangs (standard, at-will)
+24 vs AC; 3d8+7 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends). An immobilized target takes an extra 3d6 damage.
Sprays of Dead Blood ( when the horde is damaged, ) Necrotic
Close burst 1; +21 vs Reflex; 10 necrotic damage.
Ghoul Stragglers ( when the horde takes forced movement and when it is reduced to 0 hit points, ) Necrotic
Each square the ghoul horde formerly occupied now contains one abyssal ghoul hungerer, which acts just after the horde
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Abyssal
Skills Stealth +21
Str 24 (+17) Dex 22 (+16) Wis 17 (+13)
Con 20 (+15) Int 16 (+13) Cha 13 (+11)

 

[S'mon]

If we apply my approach to these throngs, let's see how they fit in.

#1 The orcs - this is from 'Threats to the Nentir Vale' and is the state of the art in terms of throng design. It's huge, so 3x3, a 9 square area. At double density that would be 18 orcs. It has xpv 400, divided by 18 = 22 per orc, indicating that it's made up of 1st level minions (25 xpv), which seems low - I would have expected it to be made up of min-4 Savage Orcs (44 xpv) or similar. Notably, it does not spawn minions on destruction. In general it seems rather weak and low xpv for the size, I think it would work better as a level 9 Elite. Or we can reduce xpv on conversion, for 9th level PCs realistically 18 min-1s are not an equivalent threat to 1 brute-9.

#2 The Zombie throng has the same size and level, indicating it may also be made up of 18 min-1s, zombie rotters perhaps. Or if we roughly halve xpv on conversion we could say that it's actually made up of 36 close-pressed zombies, 4 per 5' square, but still min-1.

#3 The Abyssal Ghoul Swarm is also Huge, 3x3, level 21 brute xpv 3200, and made up of Abyssal Ghoul Hungerers, level 18 minions which supposedly have xpv 1400 - something wrong there. Checking the xp table I see the hungerer should have XPV 500, 1/4 of a level 18 standard monster.

3200/18 = 177, nowhere near 500, even 3200/9 (1 ghoul per square) is only 352, so it looks like WoTC is definitely not preserving XPV; they appear to roughly halve XPV-per-creature on conversion from single monster to throng. I think on consideration that is a reasonable approach which gives a closer match on a 'smell test' of how threatening the mass of low level creatures really should be to a high level PC.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

So 10,000 orcs vs 1 PC is like fighting a Level 27 monster thats 100 x 100 squares and has 1 attack?

In a nutshell...yes.

However, there would be a few other factors to consider (details of which are still work in progress).

1. Remember that the Unit may only have one attack, but that attack may be treated as an aura - so the Unit could theoretically attack hundreds of attackers at once...

2. The Unit would have an Aura attack (if we were tweaking an existing stat-block then you could say that the Aura itself may also comprise a ranged attack such as arrows raining down on a target).

3. The Unit could also Engulf a target (or targets). Gaining Combat Advantage.

4. Any Medium-sized character moving through a Unit (or Engulfed) would treat it as difficult terrain.

5. The Unit would take +10 damage from Close/Area attacks and -10 from Melee/Ranged.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I had a look over your swarm rules. The main problem I had with it was your conversion of the Level based wholly on a flat tally of XPV.

That to me is illogical.

Firstly, it doesn't take into account the diminishing returns of simply adding more and more of the same (relatively weak) creatures.

Secondly, it also doesn't take into consideration that the Unit itself will degrade in combat effectiveness once it starts taking damage.

Thirdly, it doesn't make sense on the Threat scale:

5: Village
10: Town
15: City
20: Country
25: Continent/Empire
30: World

About 500 orcs are not a threat to the world.

Orcs in a typical throng should occupy 1 square per 2 orcs IMO, so it would take 20,000 of them to fill 100x100 squares.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

It sounds like you are representing a Roman Legion more than a mass of greataxe wielding Orc 'Barbarians'.

Certainly I think there is a case for Units to use your suggestion, but I think it better suits spear/polearm wielding units.

I wouldn't recommend units much above 10x10 = 100 squares, ie a company of 200 infantry - anything bigger won't fit on the typical game table,

Larger Units (almost exclusively going to be encountered upon a battlefield or other large open area) can be represented with paper/card Templates. That said, I agree anything more than 10x10 probably will be unwieldy, though they could be represented by a line of string to represent the edge of the Unit.

and that's already an Epic threat if you preserve XPV.

Preserving XPV doesn't make sense in this instance though.

Platoons of 32 orcs (4x4) make a decent Paragon threat.

(IMO) a tenfold increase should prove half as effective as preserving the XP tally. Roughly as follows...

Squad: x10...+6 Levels
Platoon: x32...+9
Company: x100...+12
Battalion: x320...+15
Regiment: x1000...+18
Brigade: x3200...+21
Division: x10,000...+24
Corps: x32,000...+27
Army: x100,000...+30
Army Group: x320,000...+33
Region: x1,000,000...+36

e.g. 1 million orcs would be a Level 39 (or Solo 30) Unit. That WOULD be a potential World threat.

The throng will normally have an Aura that automatically attacks anyone entering it or ending their turn within the aura, representing a bunch of orcs hacking at the character. It may have a standard action melee attack in addition, representing a particular focus on one enemy, but does not really need one IMO; a move action 'trample' is probably a better bet, since a trample can attack multiple foes. A force with 15'-reach awl pikes could have a pretty decent blast-3 melee attack, though.

Agreed.

Missile throngs should have an area-burst missile attack of similar size to the throng itself, eg a 5x5 missile throng (50 archers) should have a burst-2 attack, which also covers 5x5 squares. A poorly disciplined missile throng might have a large, weak area burst attack, a well disciplined throng might have the choice of a narrow/small-area, powerful attack or a wide-area weak attack - the former is effective vs enemy leaders & units, the latter would be good to pick off a bunch of dispersed enemy minions. But defaulting to unit size = burst size should work well.

Good idea.

 

[S'mon]

Thirdly, it doesn't make sense on the Threat scale:

5: Village
10: Town
15: City
20: Country
25: Continent/Empire
30: World

Yeah, but you just made that up.

I think your scale makes more sense as "This is the sort of adventures PCs should be having", not "Monsters of this level should threaten this area". Not every foe 30th level PCS face can or should threaten the world.

Anyway, on xpv look at my analysis of the actual throngs WotC has created. It supports halving the XPV. The orc throng works out exactly, 44 xp per orc, halve it, you get the xpv of the throng.

 

[S'mon]

Larger Units (almost exclusively going to be encountered upon a battlefield or other large open area) can be represented with paper/card Templates. That said, I agree anything more than 10x10 probably will be unwieldy, though they could be represented by a line of string to represent the edge of the Unit.

No one has a 100x100" game table! At that level the whole table would be full of orcs, they would be terrain, not a unit.