D&D General Mearls: Spells and Classes

[Zardnaar]

You’re right. The rules are sketchy here. The Sage background (or High Elf + Arcana prof) gives you everything you need to cast the cantrip and to craft a scroll with that cantrip on it, but the strictest reading of the RAW would not allow you to use the scroll you were able to craft which contains the spell you’re able to cast.

The Spell Scroll’s description says the spell must be "on your spell list", which is slightly less specific than "on your class spell list". Are there other types of spell lists besides class spell lists? Not explicitly, as far as I know, but… The High Elf description says "You know the Prestidigitation cantrip. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can replace that cantrip with a different cantrip from the Wizard spell list."—that sounds pretty much like the Wizard spell list is your spell list (as far as cantrips are concerned). The Magic Initiate feat likewise mentions certain class spell lists as being what you can pick from both initially and when you change your pick on level ups. Do these class spell lists become "your spell list"? It’s not 100% clear that the answer’s yes, but not entirely clear that it’s no either. It’s ambiguous. DM’s call.

Whether the DM considers the above more or less sketchy than the routine of preparing an action to reliably proc an extra SA on the Reaction because it’s someone else’s turn, I don’t know. That latter thing is entirely legit by the RAW as far as I understand it, but very sketchy. Your mileage may vary as far as your table is concerned.

Yup. I read up a lot on a scroll use and crafting.

Hard ass DM could say no. Might even be correct.

Are their scrolls that are not spells.

 

[Maxperson]

That last part is the problem with landmines, though. The people stepping on them didn't know they were there and didn't know how to find them, they're hard to get rid of, and often times the people who get blown up are just innocent bystanders. Since 5e hasn't implemented safe landmines, many people want to ban them.

This isn't 3e/3.5e where it was possible to make a character that was ineffective at everything. All 5e characters by default do well in the game, so there really aren't any landmines. There are better choices and worse choices, but no really bad choice.

A lot of us don't multiclass to kick cosmic rear, but instead multiclass to fill out a character concept or because things happen in the fiction that cause multiclassing to make a lot of sense. If my wizard had to spend a long time among a group of druids and they teaching me their ways, I'd take a level of druid when I leveled up whether it was good for my character or not. After all, it's not possible for me to cause my PC to be bad at the game. I will always be able to do well.

 

[Maxperson]

Speaking as a Gm who does like players optimizing their PCs, bsss is 100% correct about the landmines.
I say that because 5e doesn't just have a bunch of broken things lurking on the player facing character options, it doubles down on ensuring that they act as stealthed landmines by removing all of the safeguards that were present on last editions like 3.x prerequisites that got more and more difficult to meet the more over the top a pc went or the 2e dual class and multiclass rules that made it a serious commitment. The vast majority of the op landmines a PC can activate in 5e are the sort of thing that a PC can just become from one session to the next with a single level up. Spells being so easily accessible across class lines and cast with so little risk is a big factor in creating landmines.

That's not what a landmine is. A landmine is a really bad choice for a PC, which none of the really good("broken") choices are. There aren't any landmines in 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

You can cast with your bonus action scroll of true strike (which you can craft/buy relatively cheap at least cheap enough for important fights where its important).

This requires DM help. The DM has to either have magic mart for you to go around buying lots of scrolls, or else he has to have a static world where nothing interesting happens during the lots of downtime it takes for you to make that many scrolls.

When I run the game, there is no magic mart in my world, and the world doesn't conveniently stop moving. I've seen very few scrolls made.

 

[Maxperson]

Theres a contradiction in the rules.

PHB says the scroll has to be on your class spell listto iuse it. DMG seems to indicate you only need to be able to read it (unless otherwise specified PHB)

That right there is otherwise specification in the PHB.

 

[Tigris]

You can't cast a spell as a bonus action unless you're using a scroll. If you're using the 2024 rules, you don't need to do that - or multiclass for that matter. Just take the arcane initiate feat and you get the cantrip, true strike now grants you a single attack using advantage. The big drawback is that you're using intelligence to attack instead of dexterity.

As pointed out, raw you need a spell list most likely from the class. Without that you cant use spell scrolls.

Allowing to use a cantrip even selected from a spell list does not give you the spell list.

In addition, it's a lot easier to just use steady aim most of the time - it is incredibly rare that rogues don't get sneak attack for one reason or another in any game I've played.

Steady aim does not allow you to apply sneak attack twice!

But the bonus action true strike + reaction true strike at the beginning of next turn does.

This requires DM help. The DM has to either have magic mart for you to go around buying lots of scrolls, or else he has to have a static world where nothing interesting happens during the lots of downtime it takes for you to make that many scrolls.

When I run the game, there is no magic mart in my world, and the world doesn't conveniently stop moving. I've seen very few scrolls made.

Lets nor consider an adversial dm. Especially since many made adventures allow you to buy scrolls and potions explicitly often at a discount

 

[Maxperson]

Lets nor consider an adversial dm.

Not one thing I said was adversarial. The world moves on regardless. That has nothing to do with countering players. No magic mart. That has nothing to do with countering players.

Stop assuming the worst about everything that isn't how you personally like to do things. It's a really bad look.

Especially since many made adventures allow you to buy scrolls and potions explicitly often at a discount

I don't run pre-made adventures for the most part, and remove magic marts from those that I do.

 

[Zardnaar]

That right there is otherwise specification in the PHB.

Aware. Not sure how many others were.

 

[Zardnaar]

As pointed out, raw you need a spell list most likely from the class. Without that you cant use spell scrolls.

Allowing to use a cantrip even selected from a spell list does not give you the spell list.


Steady aim does not allow you to apply sneak attack twice!

But the bonus action true strike + reaction true strike at the beginning of next turn does. Downside doesnt use your attack numbers.





Lets nor consider an adversial dm. Especially since many made adventures allow you to buy scrolls and potions explicitly often at a discount

Not sure how universal buying scrolls and potions in unlimited quantities are. Potions maybe.

An enspelled weapon is probably better option. 400 gold for 6 uses lvl 1s or a cantrip. Pure rogues all good with it.

Downside doesn't use your attack numbers though.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's not what a landmine is. A landmine is a really bad choice for a PC, which none of the really good("broken") choices are. There aren't any landmines in 5e.

Useless characters are not even relevant to the tangent that was being discussed, but it was certainly never a large enough problem at any table I ever experienced to justify 5e designing around a target where creating a PC even close to the expected power curve took deliberate purposeful effort to sabotage the build. The GM is allowed to have concerns and complaints about the design because they are generally not your Netflix subscription no matter how hard you try to rationalize gm problems out of the picture.