D&D General Mearls: Spells and Classes

[Silam]

Not sure how universal buying scrolls and potions in unlimited quantities are. Potions maybe.

An enspelled weapon is probably better option. 400 gold for 6 uses lvl 1s or a cantrip. Pure rogues all good with it.

This right here brings us back on track…

It was posited that a Wiz1/Thief is twice as effective as a pure Thief due to scroll use. If we assume a strict reading of the RAW, then yeah, scroll use cannot be achieved without multi-classing before level 13…

But, as Zard points out, if the scope of the discussion includes magic items for the Thief to make use of as a BA, then an enspelled item which works ~half a dozen times a day is much more financially sustainable than scrolls, and works on a pure Thief out of the box, with no ambiguity.

So we’re back to square one… Wiz1 gives you ritual casting and a few more spells and cantrips prepped (all good things, to be sure), but are those benefits worth delaying SA progression by one level, delaying Uncanny Dodge, delaying Evasion, etc? All of that just for the privilege to burn a ton of cash on scrolls?

It’s a strategy all right, but it’s not clearly a "twice as effective" strategy.

Downside doesn't use your attack numbers though.

Exact same downside for scrolls and enspelled items, so doesn’t matter as far as comparing the Wiz1/Thief to the pure Thief.

 

[AlViking]

As pointed out, raw you need a spell list most likely from the class. Without that you cant use spell scrolls.

Allowing to use a cantrip even selected from a spell list does not give you the spell list.


Steady aim does not allow you to apply sneak attack twice!

But the bonus action true strike + reaction true strike at the beginning of next turn does.

Ah, so you're just cheating. You only get sneak attack once per turn. Getting an extra attack with advantage as a bonus action doesn't change that.

"Level 1: Sneak Attack
You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit..."

Lets nor consider an adversial dm. Especially since many made adventures allow you to buy scrolls and potions explicitly often at a discount

Or I'm completely missing something. Because if you could get two sneak attacks per turn you don't have to use true strike as a bonus action the vast majority of times.

 

[Silam]

Ah, so you're just cheating. You only get sneak attack once per turn. Getting an extra attack with advantage as a bonus action doesn't change that.

I would not say it’s cheating… by the RAW it works, since a turn is not a round. A turn belongs to a character (or monster). SA is once per turn, not once per round. So a Rogue can SA once on their own turn and then once more on someone else’s turn via their Reaction.

So it is not cheating. It is, however, in my opinion, a very poorly designed part of the game. Because: 1) it is unintuitive, 2) it makes no sense whatsoever from a verisimilitude standpoint and 3) Rogues are considered by many game balance analysts to be less powerful than other classes and having the ability to SA twice per round is often seen as the only way they could ever possibly hope to catch up… in other words… not obviously over-powered but rather it’s a naughty word rule which if you don’t take advantage of it your Rogue may be underpowered.

I put it in the same boat as Nick + Dual Wielder. Legit by the RAW and not overpowered, but extremely poorly designed in the sense that TWF is very weak in 5e and without that combo it’s even weaker.

5e has many good things going for it but SA and TWF are among the worse parts of this edition

 

[AlViking]

I would not say it’s cheating… by the RAW it works, since a turn is not a round. A turn belongs to a character (or monster). SA is once per turn, not once per round. So a Rogue can SA once on their own turn and then once more on someone else’s turn via their Reaction.

Getting true strike as a bonus action doesn't change that; it doesn't give or allow you another attack when it's not your turn.

So it is not cheating. It is, however, in my opinion, a very poorly designed part of the game. Because: 1) it is unintuitive, 2) it makes no sense whatsoever from a verisimilitude standpoint and 3) Rogues are considered by many game balance analysts to be less powerful than other classes and having the ability to SA twice per round is often seen as the only way they could ever possibly hope to catch up… in other words… not obviously over-powered but rather it’s a naughty word rule which if you don’t take advantage of it your Rogue may be underpowered.

I put it in the same boat as Nick + Dual Wielder. Legit by the RAW and not overpowered, but extremely poorly designed in the sense that TWF is very weak in 5e and without that combo it’s even weaker.

5e has many good things going for it but SA and TWF are among the worse parts of this edition

None of that gives you an extra attack outside of your turn. You need something like an opportunity attack or a battlemaster's commander strike to make the attack when not on your turn.

 

[Scott Christian]

I like the idea of smaller, more esoteric spell lists for classes.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think that the cunning action true strike rogueN/wiz1 debate nicely shows why respecting the action economy as a limit rather than subverting it at a high level with an easily achieved class feature is important. The whole debate should never have had a class feature opening the door.

 

[Tigris]

Ah, so you're just cheating. You only get sneak attack once per turn. Getting an extra attack with advantage as a bonus action doesn't change that.

"Level 1: Sneak Attack
You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit..."

Thats the point you do the bonus attack in your turn and the action is used to ready an action which you use in the next persons turn with your reaction as explained.

Or I'm completely missing something. Because if you could get two sneak attacks per turn you don't have to use true strike as a bonus action the vast majority of times.

The trick is:

1. Use the bonus action for true strike
2. Ready true strike as an action. Trigger next person in turn order starts their turn.
3. End your turn use true strike directly again using an reaction in the next characters turn. Having effectively 2 sneak attack dirwctly after one another.


You can ready a spell with a target as a condition.

You target the same target you attacked standing in front of you with the readied spell true strike.


And you have the trigger "the next character in turn order wants to act".

 

[AlViking]

Thats the point you do the bonus attack in your turn and the action is used to ready an action which you use in the next persons turn with your reaction as explained.


The trick is:

1. Use the bonus action for true strike
2. Ready true strike as an action. Trigger next person in turn order starts their turn.
3. End your turn use true strike directly again using an reaction in the next characters turn. Having effectively 2 sneak attack dirwctly after one another.

I guess we house ruled (without realizing it) that you can't ready an action if you've already taken a bonus action. If I did this (and the DM allowed it which I likely wouldn't) buying scrolls doesn't really matter anyway (see below). But there are plenty of other ways to get the cantrip such as magic initiate origin feat or playing a high elf.

A Spell Scroll is a specific type of scroll. "A Spell Scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without Material components."

Some scrolls can be used by anyone, a Scroll of Protection for example has no limit on who can cast it.

 

[bsss]

This isn't 3e/3.5e where it was possible to make a character that was ineffective at everything. All 5e characters by default do well in the game, so there really aren't any landmines. There are better choices and worse choices, but no really bad choice.

A lot of us don't multiclass to kick cosmic rear, but instead multiclass to fill out a character concept or because things happen in the fiction that cause multiclassing to make a lot of sense. If my wizard had to spend a long time among a group of druids and they teaching me their ways, I'd take a level of druid when I leveled up whether it was good for my character or not. After all, it's not possible for me to cause my PC to be bad at the game. I will always be able to do well.

I didn't realize "landmine" was jargon. I specifically was thinking of surprises in the combination of classes where a character becomes overpowered (as in the claim replying to), intentionally or not, in a way that the DM and/or the game's designers did not expect --- the landmines/surprises I spoke of are in the expectations and consistency of the game in relation to the other people getting hit by the overpower of the landmine, not that the player got a terrible build in the end. Sorry for the confusion, but chalk it up to over-proliferation of jargon again.

Multiclassing that produces unique character concepts that are still within the mechanical intent of the game is great. The surprises are especially great (EDIT: great as in extreme, not good; oops) when someone comes in with that innocent intent and ends up with something broken.

 

[Tigris]

I guess we house ruled (without realizing it) that you can't ready an action if you've already taken a bonus action. If I did this (and the DM allowed it which I likely wouldn't) buying scrolls doesn't really matter anyway (see below). But there are plenty of other ways to get the cantrip such as magic initiate origin feat or playing a high elf.

A Spell Scroll is a specific type of scroll. "A Spell Scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without Material components."

Some scrolls can be used by anyone, a Scroll of Protection for example has no limit on who can cast it.

Ah but here you quote the rules for scrolls found as treasure from the DMG. This includes higher level spell scrolls.


The PHB has the rules for scrolls bought as equipment (and crafting allows to craft equipment and not treasure).


The rule for using spell scrolls as equipment, which includes level 0 and level 1 spell scrolls, states that the spell from the scroll must be on your class spell list in order to be used and not a spell you know.


So raw you cant use a spell scroll of true strike which you bought or crafted, unless you multiclass 1 level into a spellcaster.

And I would not rely on the GM dropping you enough true strike scrolls as treasure to use.


Does it make sense to have different rules for using spells depending on if they are found as treasure or not? Of course not, but raw this is the case and there was no errata added to the 2 different rules so this has to be assumed to be intended. (To prevent non spell casters to get easy access to repeatable spells through money )