Minion + Swarm = Henchmen

[Minigiant]

Minions are cool. They work well as long as the PCs don't purposely bring too many anit-minion tactics with them. But there is a small niche or enemy that resides between the fodder minion and the standard monster equal. The enemy that requires effort to deal with but not still not a challenge to the standard enemy or PC. Between the grunt and the trained warrior. They 'd still go down with one solid hit, but not any hit will do.

Converting a minion to a hechmen.
1) Double XP (making the worth 1/2 a standard monster)
2) +1 to attack rolls, damage, and defenses.
3) Henchmen resist damage equal to their level. Any resistance the henchman already had increases by its level. One must roll a strong and solid hit to slay a hechmen.
4) Henchmen take half damage from close and area attacks. One must focus on a henchman
3) Enemies adjadcent to a henchmen at the start of the their turn are dealt damage equal to the henchman's level.

What do you think?

 

[Mesh Hong]

Minions are cool. They work well as long as the PCs don't purposely bring too many anit-minion tactics with them. But there is a small niche or enemy that resides between the fodder minion and the standard monster equal. The enemy that requires effort to deal with but not still not a challenge to the standard enemy or PC. Between the grunt and the trained warrior. They 'd still go down with one solid hit, but not any hit will do.

Its an interesting idea, you are basically trying to come up with yet another approach for elite minions. Its a worthy ambition.

Converting a minion to a hechmen.
1) Double XP (making the worth 1/2 a standard monster)

Yes fair enough.

2) +1 to attack rolls, damage, and defenses.

There is no precident for this in the system. Elites and Solos don't get bonuses to hit or deal extra damage with standard attacks so why should elite minions get this advantage? Really if you want to give them a +1 to attack you should increase their level by 1.

3) Henchmen resist damage equal to their level. Any resistance the henchman already had increases by its level. One must roll a strong and solid hit to slay a hechmen.

A flat untyped resistance equal to its level might work, I really don't think you should be adding it to any natural resistances though. After playing around with some numbers I assume that this is purely to stop auto damage from killing the creature; eg cleave, rod of reaving, splash damage etc

4) Henchmen take half damage from close and area attacks. One must focus on a henchman

Again I see what you are trying to do here but I think it is the wrong approach. Resistance + half damage is far too strong for what you are trying to achieve, and I really can't see any pecident for a creature mysteriously taking half damage (which will most likely result in no damage)

3) Enemies adjadcent to a henchmen at the start of the their turn are dealt damage equal to the henchman's level.

Again, I'm sorry but this seems out of place as well, the henchman should be doing damage through attacking, not with a damage aura (then attacking). I can very much imagine these henchmen rushing in to positions where they can catch multiple PCs in their damage aura and dealing large amounts of damage. I know you want to make them a threat but I don't think this is the way to achieve that.

Even though my comments are quite negative I still think its an interesting idea and should be developed.



For the record my current thinking with this sort of thing is the elite minion:
- double xp value (worth 2 minions)
- first hit bloodies elite minion
- second hit kills elite minion

I think this is quite an elegant solution as it doesn't interfere with any of the existing rules or powers and also allows powers or effects that rely on the bloodied state to be used by both sides.

I am also testing revised minion xp values (as put forward by someone on this board - Keterys maybe?)
level 1 to 5 = 4 minions = 1 standard creature
level 6 to 10 = 5 minions = 1 standard creature
level 11 to 15 = 6 minions = 1 standard creature
level 16 to 20 = 7 minions = 1 standard creature
level 21 to 25 = 8 minions = 1 standard creature
level 26 to 30 = 9 minions = 1 standard creature

again I like this because it doesn't alter any stats or powers, it just increases the number of minions in an encounter. I think this will work well as the players love cutting a massive swathe through minions but as a DM you will still have enough left over to make a decent fight.

The only real issue I have with minions is at paragon level when you suddenly have burst 8 encounter powers. Now I don't want to ban or neuter the power but in order to still use minions I need a appropriate and balanced creature side change. I believe a combination of the 2 above rules will achieve it.

 

[Minigiant]

I had resistance stack because most mininion have resistance lower than their level. This is to preserve the flavor.
1/2 damage + resist level is not to strong considering that you only need 1 damage to kill them. A level 10 minion has resist 10 versus single target and 20 versus AOE.
Who can't deal 10 damage at level 10 with an at-will and a good damage roll. Or 20 damage with a encounter.

The idea behind henchmen is to force PC to waste actions on them. They are still fodder but you have to actually TRY to kill them.

I was thinking to switch the attack/damage/defense boost and aura with an action point. How about that?

 

[Mesh Hong]

I have just whipped up a very basic level 10 human henchman to get a better feel of your original idea.


Human Henchman Level 10 henchman (Minion)
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 250

Initiative +9 Senses Perception +8
Henchman Aura aura 1; Enemies starting their turn inside aura take 10 damage
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 25; Fortitude 24, Reflex 23, Will 22
Resist all damage 10; half damage from close or area attacks
Speed 5

Longsword Strike (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +16 vs. AC; 7 damage

Henchman Tactics (Immediate Reaction; at-will) ♦ missed by melee attack
If Henchman is missed by a melee attack it may immediately shift 1 square
and make a Longsword Strike attack as an immediate reaction

Alignment Unaligned Languages common
Skills Athletics +15, Endurance +14, Intimidate +12, Streetwise +12
Str 21 (+10) Dex 18 (+9) Wis 16 (+8)
Con 18 (+9) Int 16 (+8) Cha 14 (+7)
Equipment chainmail, shield, longsword


Now that I've done this it doesn't seem that bad.

The only thing that really stands out as being wrong is the damage aura. If you were to keep this it would have to do at most the same damage as the creatures standard melee attack, but I would probably want it to be less because it is auto hitting and affecting multiple targets.

The changes to defences and attack would slip by unnoticed by your players and wouldn't actually cause an in game issue.

I still don't like the half damage from close and area attacks because it is purely a mathmatical solution without any logical (or even illogical) reasoning.

I was thinking to switch the attack/damage/defense boost and aura with an action point. How about that?

Its an idea, but what is the henchman going to actually achieve with an action point? In this case another 7 damage, you would be better off giving them a recharge or encounter power that gave them access to better attack, in this case a 2d6+5 damage attack.

But all this is veering away from the basic reasoning behind minions. They should be easy to run and require no book keeping. If you have got to track which minions have used action points, or encounter powers or roll for recharge every turn then in essence they are not doing their job and might as well be normal creatures.

Note: I am not sure if I am even convincing myself with that last point, it would depend on how many henchmen you intend to use in a single encounter. If you were only going to use a couple mixed in with normal minions it might not be that bad, if you were going to use 20 it would be a lot more work to keep track of.

 

[Larac]

While defending their temple all minions gain.


All minions within the area in Squares or Sight.
Gain Resist Damage n +5 vs All Damage
Gain Save vs AOE save or no damage

Not something to use a lot but in a few special cases works well.

Just an idea.

Lee

 

[Minigiant]

While defending their temple all minions gain.


All minions within the area in Squares or Sight.
Gain Resist Damage n +5 vs All Damage
Gain Save vs AOE save or no damage

Not something to use a lot but in a few special cases works well.

Just an idea.

Lee

The idea is not to boost minions but to create another monster type

I still don't like the half damage from close and area attacks because it is purely a mathmatical solution without any logical (or even illogical) reasoning.



Its an idea, but what is the henchman going to actually achieve with an action point? In this case another 7 damage, you would be better off giving them a recharge or encounter power that gave them access to better attack, in this case a 2d6+5 damage attack.

But all this is veering away from the basic reasoning behind minions. They should be easy to run and require no book keeping. If you have got to track which minions have used action points, or encounter powers or roll for recharge every turn then in essence they are not doing their job and might as well be normal creatures.

Note: I am not sure if I am even convincing myself with that last point, it would depend on how many henchmen you intend to use in a single encounter. If you were only going to use a couple mixed in with normal minions it might not be that bad, if you were going to use 20 it would be a lot more work to keep track of.

Maybe remove the 1/2 damage and make the aura into an attack.


1) Double XP
2) Resistance equal to level
3) +2 to all defense


Here's my idea

Hobgoblin Infantry Level 3 Henchman
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 75

Initiative +4 Senses Perception +3, low-light vision

HP 1; a missed attack never damages a henchman.
AC 19 (21 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 17, Reflex 15, Will 14
Resist all damage 10
Speed 6

Longsword Strike (standard; at-will) ♦ Weapon
Attack +6 vs. AC; 5 damage

Hobgoblin Resilience

Phalanx Soldier

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +9, History +7,
Str 19 (+4) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 16 (+3)
Con 15 (+2) Int 16 (+0) Cha 10 (+0)
Equipment scale armor, light shield, longsword


For a 5 PC level 3 party at war with a goblin cheiftan would run into these often. A handful of fresh hobgoblin rookies, a couple with some fighting experience, and a few vets.

Hobgoblin phalanx
4 hobgoblin grunts (level 3 minion)
2 hobgoblin infantry (level 3 henchmen)
3 hobgobin soldiers (level 3 soldier)

Sometime 'til run into these.

Hobgoblin warparty
4 hobgoblin infantry (level 3 henchmen)
3 hobgoblin archers (level 3 artillery)

Goblin strike team
4 hobgoblin infantry (level 3 henchmen)
2 goblin skullcleaver (level 3 brute)
1 goblin hexer (level 3 controller)

Then their angry hobgoblin boss would send his two of his lieutenantsto kill the PCs: his bugbear assassin and the leader of his goblins. They bring some assisstants.

Goblin assassination squad
1 bugbear strangler (level 5 lurker)
1 goblin underboss (level 4 elite controller)
2 hobgoblin infantry (level 3 henchmen)
2 goblin cutters (level 1 minion)

Later they'd confront the boss, his warmage and some skiller fighters. The new leader of the goblins joins in.

1 hobgoblin strangler (level 5 soldier)
1 hobgoblin warcaster (level 3 controller)
4 hobgoblin infantry (level 3 henchmen)
1 goblin warrior (level 1 skrimisher)

 

[Mesh Hong]

Maybe remove the 1/2 damage and make the aura into an attack.

1) Double XP
2) Resistance equal to level
3) +2 to all defense

Here's my idea

Hobgoblin Infantry Level 3 Henchman
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 75

Initiative +4 Senses Perception +3, low-light vision

HP 1; a missed attack never damages a henchman.
AC 19 (21 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 17, Reflex 15, Will 14
Resist all damage 10
Speed 6

Longsword Strike (standard; at-will) ♦ Weapon
Attack +6 vs. AC; 5 damage

Hobgoblin Resilience

Phalanx Soldier

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +9, History +7,
Str 19 (+4) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 16 (+3)
Con 15 (+2) Int 16 (+0) Cha 10 (+0)
Equipment scale armor, light shield, longsword

Ok I am a bit confused by your example because it doesn't follow your own rules.

1: You have removed the half damage and the aura
2: You have given a level 3 creature a resistance of 10 (by your own rules it should be 3)

I think we are maybe getting somewhere though:-

I completely agree with giving an elite minion +2 to all defences (usually it would be +2 to 3 defences, but as they are killed in 1 hit I think all 4 defences is fair enough)

Maybe you could change the resistance to 5+1/2 level, so a level 3 would have 6 resistance and a level 10 would have 10 resistance. I havn't done the maths on this to check that it is reasonable but my instinct tells me it should be ok for Heroic and Epic but it might cause a minor problem in the second half of Paragon. (basic attacks gain an extra dice at 21).

As the henchman is an elite it should get a double attack. In order to keep the henchman more dangerous than 2 basic minions I would consider giving him a basic attack where he attacks the same target twice. This would keep his standard action number of attacks in line but make him slightly more dangerous with opportunity attacks, and thinking about it charges as well. (this would be keeping him in line with your design goal that they are dangerous to ignore and require effort to deal with)

This would change your Hobgoblin to:

Hobgoblin Infantry Level 3 Henchman
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 76

Initiative +4 Senses Perception +3, low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a henchman.
AC 19 (21 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 17, Reflex 15, Will 14
Resist all damage 6
Speed 6

Longsword Flurry (standard; at-will) ♦ Weapon
2 attacks against the same target; attack +6 vs. AC; 5 damage

Hobgoblin Resilience

Phalanx Soldier

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +9, History +7,
Str 19 (+4) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 16 (+3)
Con 15 (+2) Int 16 (+0) Cha 10 (+0)
Equipment scale armor, light shield, longsword

 

[Minigiant]

It was a bad copy and paste. I forgot to change them due to a distraction.



Resist: Assuming 1d6 + mod + bonus vs 5 + 1/2 level. that should work. It'll nullify most bad rolls of an atll. That sound describe the guy who doesn't go down with a batarang. It'll need beefing at Epic. 1/2 damage vs close and area might be too much.

Defense: +2 to all seems to work dut the the low defenses of the minion base.

Offense: Double attack sounds great. Or simply double damage?

Take minion to henchman:
1) Double XP
2) Resistance equal to 5 + 1/2 level (10 + 1/2 level at level 21)
3) +2 to all defenses
4) Double damage

 

[Mesh Hong]

It's slightly more rolling but I would stick with 2 attacks (on both standard and opportunity attacks) as it will give them 2 chances to hit making them a little more reliable, and more in line with standard elites. I like the idea that they get 2 attacks with an opportunity attack as it will make them stand out as more threatening to your players while still keeping them at minion level damage.

Otherwise I think its ready for actual playtesting. I look forward to hearing your results.