Miracles and Wishes

[Elephant]

How does Miracle compare to Wish? According to the PHB, Wish has several more possible effects than Miracle, including wishing for items, ability increases, or even changing the results of an unlucky die roll. Can Miracle do these things, too, or is it generally limited to the powers listed in its PHB text?

 

[Li Shenron]

How does Miracle compare to Wish? According to the PHB, Wish has several more possible effects than Miracle, including wishing for items, ability increases, or even changing the results of an unlucky die roll. Can Miracle do these things, too, or is it generally limited to the powers listed in its PHB text?

In theory you can wish for anything, or reqest a miracle for anything. The DM normally decides if you succeeds or not, usually based upon the situation, the plot of the campaign and sometimes even straight roleplay. For example, at the end of a very pushing quest done because of your god's will, of which the final encounter vs opposite god's avatar is going very badly because of unfortunate luck, the DM may let an overpowerful Miracle to succeed; the same request may not be granted in normal situations.

The PHB provides a list of requests that are enough in line of power with 9th level spells to be automatically successful (obviously, a DM may still overrule this - just as he could suddenly make all magic stop in the world if he wishes - but as default they should always work).

If an example is listed for Wish but not Miracle, consider it as one example of the first kind, that is a request that it should not normally work. Remember that to cast Wish you always have to pay 5000Xp or more, which is probably the reason why it has more sureproof applications compared to Miracle (which anyway has much more flexibility in replicating spells).

 

[Kalanyr]

Considering that most of the functions of Wish that Miracle can do are done for no XP cost, I'm inclined to leave the specifically stated functions of Wish as exclusive to it, the Cleric being better than the Wizard at magic is annoying to me when said cleric also has better HD, better BAB, better saves, more spells per day, no spellbook, no expendable material components and gets all the Divine Spells scribed into his virtual spellbook for free upon levelling.

 

[Plane Sailing]

the Cleric being better than the Wizard at magic is annoying to me when said cleric also has better HD, better BAB, better saves, more spells per day, no spellbook, no expendable material components and gets all the Divine Spells scribed into his virtual spellbook for free upon levelling.

Well said!

I think Miracle ought to have the same xp cost as wish, frankly. Either that or wish is allowed some applications without an xp cost too.

 

[Lord_Fergus]

I believe Wish should have much greater latitude in what is accomplished. IMHO Wish is the arcane caster imposing his will to shape reality through magic. An intelligence check might be a good idea and the caster will generally know what the ramifications of the Wish will be. A Miracle on the other hand is basically asking for divine intercession from the spiritual source of the cleric's powers. The DM has much more latitude to shape the effects and ramifications of the Miracle. Perhaps the diety substitutes a different but perhaps equal results based on their own agenda or whatever. My point being that Wish is a more "accurate" spell in my opinion from the standpoint of achieving a certain result.

 

[UltimaGabe]

the Cleric being better than the Wizard at magic is annoying to me when said cleric also has better HD, better BAB, better saves, more spells per day, no spellbook, no expendable material components and gets all the Divine Spells scribed into his virtual spellbook for free upon levelling.

The Cleric, however, has someone to answer to. If he decides to use his spells for whatever the heck he wants, and he does it all to bring glory to himself, his powers can very easily be taken from him. The Wizard, on the other hand, gets his power from himself, and can therefore use his spells to do whatever he feels like, paying homage to nobody. Plus, the Wizard, given time, can get FAR more spells in his spellbook than any Cleric will ever get from his god.

 

[Kalanyr]

Can he ? Last time I checked the number of arcane spells a wizard can afford to learn without forgoing any magic items at all is SMALLER than the divine spell list. Oh and did I mention that the Cleric gods thing is a) a roleplaying restriction balancing tremendous power (apparently a design no-no) and therefore shouldn't meaningful alter the balance of the class if its removed. I kinda suspect it would and b) Avoidable by playing a cleric of a philosophy like oh say "Personal Empowerment", which is almost impossible to cross and certainly possible by the core rules.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The Cleric, however, has someone to answer to.

Not in 3e! The cleric can joyfully gain his powers from a philosophical principle and doesn't even have to follow a god :\

If he decides to use his spells for whatever the heck he wants, and he does it all to bring glory to himself, his powers can very easily be taken from him.

Are you thinking of anything in the rules which particularly supports that? Does it say somewhere that naughty clerics can lose all their powers? If it does, I'm fairly sure that it doesn't go as far as delineating the criteria which constitute transgression. It might be nice if it -did-, because that would put a bit more flesh on the old cleric bones