Missing Rules

I feel like what is simple and obvious to come up in a game is a very subjective claim. I don't feel for example that there has ever been a system I've ran where if I ran it long enough, I had to make some sort of decision about how to handle (or not handle) a mass combat - whether to run it cinematically in the background, or set up some sort of minigame, or handle it as a skirmish with a large number of participants, or try to build one where it was missing because what happened in the battle mattered and the PCs were either nominally or functionally in command.
The idea that a game about film-noir style detectives who are out solving crimes and getting in scrapes with cops, criminals, and jealous spouses is 'lacking rules' because it doesn't have a means to satisfactorily resolve World War II battles (or even the whole thing!) in real time is just silly, as is saying that Kids on Bikes is missing rules because it doesn't have a system for handling the war in the Middle East (whichever one is contemporary to your setting). They're clearly out of scope for the game, and even your example doesn't come up routinely in a game.

But even if we ignore how wildly out of scope contemporary mass combat is for a game about children on bikes, if a game has rules for combat then the game does have rules for mass combat. You just use the combat rules. You may not find it convenient, but "It's cumbersome to do X under the rules" is simply not the same as "the game doesn't have rules for X".

I feel like this is implied. 1e AD&D does not say what happens when someone who isn't a thief attempts to climb a sheer surface or pick a pocket or what not. This is a missing rule in exactly the same sense of a missing mass combat system, and AD&D actually addressed the later before the former.

No, it's different. AD&D (limiting to PHB/DMG) has rules for combat, and those rules don't have a limit on the size of combat one can resolve with them. There is not missing rule. AD&D does not have rules for when someone who isn't a thief attempts one of the thief skills, thus it is a missing rule, there is no rule to follow for what happens there.

While it might not feel right to say, "Well since it doesn't say, they can't" that is a perfectly valid thing to say. If you aren't proficient in something you can't do it doesn't need to be said explicitly in the context of a positive declaration. If the only examples provided for the skill is someone with a character generation resource, then the rule "someone not proficient always fails" is already implied, without having to be written down.

Inventing a rule is inventing a rule, and what you've done here is invent a rule. Also the rule you've invented for AD&D is contradictory to the way I've seen it played, the way most OSR advocates say it should be played, and the way people like Gary Gygax described it being played, so it's not like there's an obvious answer.
 

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Without actually seeing Chill 3e, I feel like too tightly defining what a game is about so that you have this big swath of things that game is definitely not about and doesn't support, is always a big turn off for me in a rules system.

I'm not so interested about what you think your core game loop as you see it requires as what your setting as you present it requires. If these things happen in your setting, then they can happen in ways that involve the PCs.

That's a perfectly reasonable position, but not something the game designer is required to cater to.
 


Who says anything about required? No one is required to cater to me. I don't expect them to cater to me. Catering to me is a lot of work and only gets you at best one customer.

I'm just saying that a game that deliberately ignores some elements that can exist in the world because it expects players to not engage with those elements in the process of doing what the game is about" is not misdesigned, and is not really *missing anything, its just designed with a different set of criteria than some might prefer.

Ths is quite a bit different than a game that doesn't have procedures (besides "the GM makes something up") for things that would normally be expected to come up within the routine play cycle for what its supposedly about.

The first is a design paradigm some might not like; the second is (unless you consider the "GM makes something up" solution the all purpose patch here) actively missing things it should have.
 


The idea that a game about film-noir style detectives who are out solving crimes and getting in scrapes with cops, criminals, and jealous spouses is 'lacking rules' because it doesn't have a means to satisfactorily resolve World War II battles (or even the whole thing!) in real time is just silly, as is saying that Kids on Bikes is missing rules because it doesn't have a system for handling the war in the Middle East (whichever one is contemporary to your setting). They're clearly out of scope for the game, and even your example doesn't come up routinely in a game.

So let's take that at face value. First, I can never imagine myself buying a game about film-noir style detectives who are out solving crimes and the rest, because off the top of my head I can think of zero examples of the genre of "film-noir" style detectives where the detectives are an ensemble cast who work together cooperatively. RPGs are in my opinion social, and you're taking as inspiration stories that are not typically social and cooperative. What you are doing is extrapolating into setting, which is say the 1930s that never was, and setting a street level super-hero story there and perhaps not even realizing it. And if I start thinking about that, then the sort of thing that comes to mind for me is "We're no angels", a dark comedy about three escapees from Devil's Island who rob a family during their escape attempt but catching a sudden case of conscious, decide instead to help and protect the family against the forces of evil. And that's set in a fictional Cayenne in French Guiana, so the very very first thing I'm going to be asking of your hypothetical system is can it do "We're No Angels". And it's a small jump from there to WWII for me, as something like Casablanca shows. Because if I do a Casablanca scenario in an RPG, and it ends the way it did, the next story for the characters is the French Resistance in WW2. And maybe I don't even intend that, but it works out that way, and now what? Unlike a movie, the story doesn't end. Players are if they are having fun wanting to go one with characters they love and plots that there are digging into.

Kids on Bikes set in Iran or Ukraine or something would be amazing.

But even if we ignore how wildly out of scope contemporary mass combat is for a game about children on bikes, if a game has rules for combat then the game does have rules for mass combat. You just use the combat rules. You may not find it convenient, but "It's cumbersome to do X under the rules" is simply not the same as "the game doesn't have rules for X".

Now you are arguing my point for me. Because in my original post on this topic I said that from one perspective no rules are ever "missing", because obviously you could just roll 80,000 D20's (or whatever you needed). In fact, this goes back to the discussion of Celebrim's World Simpliest RPG where I discussed the simplest possible set of complete rules, and why we have rules for RPGs in the first place. Yes, technically, a game that resolved every proposition with a coin flip has a rule for everything, but that really misses the point.

AD&D does not have rules for when someone who isn't a thief attempts one of the thief skills, thus it is a missing rule, there is no rule to follow for what happens there.

The rules certainly do not imply anyone can attempt one of the "thief skills" if they are not a thief. There are no rules in place for what happens if someone attempts to cast a M-U spell if they aren't a M-U either, nor are there any rules for what happens if someone petitions a deity for a spell who isn't a cleric. Yet this doesn't seem to raise the same sort of hackles. It's "obvious" what happens if someone who isn't an M-U attempts to cast a spell from a spellbook. The truth is really that in one case you think there is a "missing rule" because you don't like the outcome of applying the rules, where as in the other you've probably never even thought about it because you don't mind the outcome of applying the rules.

Inventing a rule is inventing a rule, and what you've done here is invent a rule.

I have not. It's not inventing a rule to say that failure is automatic if you attempt to cast a M-U spell when you aren't an M-U.

is contradictory to the way I've seen it played, the way most OSR advocates say it should be played, and the way people like Gary Gygax described it being played, so it's not like there's an obvious answer.

That I agree with. I've got a whole thread on this in the "old systems" forums about the fact that AD&D never got around to creating a unified answer to the question of non-combat propositions even though everyone including the designer seemed to understand that the rules were insufficient here. No one seemed to agree on what the rules should be, but everyone seemed to agree there needed to be more of them.
 

So let's take that at face value. First, I can never imagine myself buying a game about film-noir style detectives who are out solving crimes and the rest, because off the top of my head I can think of zero examples of the genre of "film-noir" style detectives where the detectives are an ensemble cast who work together cooperatively. RPGs are in my opinion social, and you're taking as inspiration stories that are not typically social and cooperative. What you are doing is extrapolating into setting, which is say the 1930s that never was, and setting a street level super-hero story there and perhaps not even realizing it. And if I start thinking about that, then the sort of thing that comes to mind for me is "We're no angels", a dark comedy about three escapees from Devil's Island who rob a family during their escape attempt but catching a sudden case of conscious, decide instead to help and protect the family against the forces of evil. And that's set in a fictional Cayenne in French Guiana, so the very very first thing I'm going to be asking of your hypothetical system is can it do "We're No Angels". And it's a small jump from there to WWII for me, as something like Casablanca shows. Because if I do a Casablanca scenario in an RPG, and it ends the way it did, the next story for the characters is the French Resistance in WW2. And maybe I don't even intend that, but it works out that way, and now what? Unlike a movie, the story doesn't end. Players are if they are having fun wanting to go one with characters they love and plots that there are digging into.

Kids on Bikes set in Iran or Ukraine or something would be amazing.

The idea that a game can be said to be "missing rules" if it isn't something Celebrim would want to buy, if it doesn't cover every style of game that Celebrim might want to play vaguely related to something in the game, and also if it does cover a particular angle but not in a way that Celebrim thinks is convenient enough is certainly an idea. But I think it's clear to the rest of the thread that 'there's no rule for how to resolve the incredibly common situation that's well within the scope of the game' is different from 'this game meant for playing a detective in a city like NYC or Chicago doesn't support playing a member of the French Resistance in occupied France, or maybe even controlling a whole cell of the French resistance' or 'this game meant for playing kids on bikes investigating mysteries doesn't support modeling modern warfare'.
 

The idea that a game can be said to be "missing rules" if it isn't something Celebrim would want to buy, if it doesn't cover every style of game that Celebrim might want to play vaguely related to something in the game, and also if it does cover a particular angle but not in a way that Celebrim thinks is convenient enough is certainly an idea. But I think it's clear to the rest of the thread that 'there's no rule for how to resolve the incredibly common situation that's well within the scope of the game' is different from 'this game meant for playing a detective in a city like NYC or Chicago doesn't support playing a member of the French Resistance in occupied France, or maybe even controlling a whole cell of the French resistance' or 'this game meant for playing kids on bikes investigating mysteries doesn't support modeling modern warfare'.

My point is entirely that the two things you think are wholly unrelated and made up as an example of wholly unrelated things, are not as wholly unrelated as you think, and, if you play a game for several hundreds hours instead of one or two dozen, those things that seem remote and not part of the game will often find there way into the game a lot more naturally than you think.

If you "play at the world" then eventually you get out of the Truman Show level tiny worlds and start exploring. I mean, even one of the definitive modern "kids on bikes" inspirations - Stranger Things - gets out of the small town at times and ends up with something like "modern warfare".

I get from a economics perspective why a designer wants to make a narrowly focused game with under 300 pages of text that doesn't cover a lot other than the envisioned "core gameplay" and then if it is a hit they can always start churning out supplements to cover the different ways to play that might come up. Star Wars D6 sort of does this with supplements for Privateers, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters, but in my opinion never quite gets there the way something like Traveller does.
 

NOTE: This is just for fun and not meant to be an invitation to dog pile on any particular game.

Have you ever discovered, after some play, that a RPG was missing a rule or a class of rule? For example, you started with local adventures and when it is time to move farther a field you discover the game has no travel rules. Like that.

Has that ever happened to you? What game? What rule? How did you resolve it?
Fifty years on and I'm still waiting for D&D to explain how characters are supposed to complete a journey through the Ethereal Plane to another plane of existence.

Multiple books across multiple editions say characters who find themselves on the Ethereal Plane can physically travel through the Ethereal to reach other planes. However, none of those sources explain how characters are supposed to exit the Border Ethereal region at the end of a physical journey through the Ethereal Plane.

There are rules for entering the Deep Ethereal region; rules for traveling through the Deep Ethereal towards one's destination plane; and rules for entering the Border Ethereal region which overlaps one's destination plane. But there are no rules for crossing from the Border Ethereal to the destination plane using only the features of the Ethereal Plane itself.
 

Fifty years on and I'm still waiting for D&D to explain how characters are supposed to complete a journey through the Ethereal Plane to another plane of existence.

Multiple books across multiple editions say characters who find themselves on the Ethereal Plane can physically travel through the Ethereal to reach other planes. However, none of those sources explain how characters are supposed to exit the Border Ethereal region at the end of a physical journey through the Ethereal Plane.

There are rules for entering the Deep Ethereal region; rules for traveling through the Deep Ethereal towards one's destination plane; and rules for entering the Border Ethereal region which overlaps one's destination plane. But there are no rules for crossing from the Border Ethereal to the destination plane using only the features of the Ethereal Plane itself.
How did they get in there in the first place? Just do that, but backwards!
 

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