Monk?

[RUMBLETiGER]

So, I wanted to provide a place where the discussion could continue, without hijacking other threads.

Monks. Some people like them, others not so much. I personally have never played them, for the reason that the class seemed to me to be weak.

I'd love for links to be posted where the discussion has already had solid points provided. I'd also love to see builds that players have actually used well, enjoyed and perhaps even share a story where a Monk PC has shone in a party.

If we're going to take this class apart to observe the finer points, lets not make that mess on someone else's thread.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My most common builds are Dex/Wis/Con types with some kind of polearm, focused on maximizing AoOs. The last 2 built like that were a Githzerai Monk/PsyWar/Lucid Cenobite* and a human Monk/Kensai (it may have ha a couple of spell caster levels, but I forget).

The Gith dealt decent melee damage with his Bisento**- second only to the Barbarian- and was rarely touched (his AC was in the mid to high 20s even at ECL3). When he used Expansion, things got ugly: much more reach, many more threatened squares, and a nice boost to Str.

The Human version of the same build was used in an ENWorld gameday run by der_kludge, and was actually the most effective melee damage dealer in the party. Her weapon: the Greatspear. Her size boost came from potions. And the Kensai +8 Str boost- which she had the ranks to typically get 2-3 times per combat- coupled with her weapon of choice made her a nightmare for our foes. In the last battle, she was the only PC to land any blows on the 2 green dragons we faced because only she had the reach to get to them. And she landed lots: they kept provoking AoOs from my big WoC Greatspear.

Both typically won initiative, allowing them at least one ranged attack with a crossbow...which usually hit.

I've toyed with a "Dhalsim" build like the above but using unarmed strikes only, but that would require evil alignment and 4 feats just to get the reach I want.

(Also, check out the Monk database in my sig.)







* a PrCl from Hyperconscious

** a polearm from the Rokugan setting

 

[Wyvernhand]

Look up "the monkening" over on gitp. It's amusing, at the least.

 

[Dandu]

I remember that one; I was in it. The monk ended up dying more times than anyone else in the party. Giacomo claims that was due to bad luck. Maybe, but you don't hear him claiming his successes were due to anything less than brilliance on his part...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And then there's some of us who like them and play them, but also are realistic enough to observe they're mechanically the weakest class in the game.

I really want to "fix" the class so it's good for 20 levels, I think my PF Monk rules are a good deal of the way there but still not drastic enough. Ironically, most of the resistance I've gotten in that thread is people claiming monks are just "fine."

 

[Dandu]

You'll get the same attitude about the 3.5e monk as well. (You people know who you are.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And then there's some of us who like them and play them, but also are realistic enough to observe they're mechanically the weakest class in the game.

I'm with ya- but in my opinion, "fixing" the monk is only part of the solution. The spellcasters would also need to be toned down a bit to complete the task...

(If you're concerned about balance, that is.)

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'd also love to see builds that players have actually used well...

This is the monk I played in War of the Burning Sky, up until 8th level, when the DM got tired and quit (to my great disappointment). She was definitely the most effective PC in the group, though I like to think that wasn't entirely due to the "build," and more fun than I can even say. The DM and other players of that campaign still recall her with great fondness.

Female human paragon 3 / sorcerer 1 / monk 2 / enlightened fist 2
LN Medium Humanoid
Init +2; Senses Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Common, Auran

AC 23 (+4 mage armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +6 monk), touch 19, flat-footed 21; 27 with shield
hp 53 (8 HD)
Resist evasion
Fort +7, Ref +12, Will +12
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares)
Melee unarmed strike +10 (1d8+5) or mwk ranseur +8 (2d4+4/x3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with ranseur)
Base Atk +4; Grp +7
Atk Options flurry of blows; Stunning Fist (DC 20) 8/day
Combat Gear scrolls (see below); potions of enlarge person {2} and cure serious wounds; wands of cure light wounds {35} and magic missile {21}
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 8th)
2nd (5/day) -- false life
1st (8/day) -- mage armor, shield, shocking grasp
0 (6/day) -- caltrops, detect magic, electric jolt, light, message, prestidigitation

Abilities (40-pt buy) Str 14 (16), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 22
SQ East Wind Training, Adaptive Learning (Use Magic Device), ki strike (magic), fist of energy

Feats Civic-Minded, East Wind Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus (Concentration), Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Armor Proficiency (light), Martial Weapon Proficiency (ranseur), Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Stunning
Skills Balance 6/+10, Bluff 5/+11, Climb 7/+10, Concentration 10/+15, Diplomacy 8/+16, Disguise 0/+8, Intimidate 0/+8, Jump 6/+15, Knowledge (arcana) 5/+6, Sleight of Hand 0/+4, Spellcraft 5/+8, Tumble 11/+15, Use Magic Device 1/+7 (+9 for scrolls)

Possessions (76/153/230 -- 19, light) Heward's handy haversack (5 lbs) plus masterwork ranseur (12 lbs), amulet of mighty fists +2, boots of agile leaping, gauntlets of ogre power, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, spell component pouch (2 lbs), courtier's outfit (worn), and jewelry (50 gp value)
Haversack Contents combat gear (.3 lb) plus bedroll (5 lbs), grappling hook (4 lbs), 100' silk rope (10 lbs), cold weather outfit (7 lbs), and 132.34 gp cash
Arcane Scrolls mirror image, see invisibility, spectral hand {2}, spider climb, comprehend languages, disguise self, enlarge person {2}, expeditious retreat, grease, obscuring mist, protection from evil {2}, true strike {2}, unseen servant
Divine Scrolls inflict serious wounds, water breathing, silence

 

[Dandu]

Female human paragon 3 / sorcerer 1 / monk 2 / enlightened fist 2

I have a question: Did you take levels in the order of Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 2?
Edit: Also, I am surprised that Aescetic Mage was not on your list of feats. Unless Enlightened Fist grants Cha to AC?

 

[Vegepygmy]

I have a question: Did you take levels in the order of Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 2?

Human Paragon 1
Human Paragon 1 / Monk 1
Human Paragon 1 / Monk 2
Human Paragon 1 / Monk 2 / Sorcerer 1
Human Paragon 2 / Monk 2 / Sorcerer 1
Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sorcerer 1
Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sorcerer 1 / Enlightened Fist 1
Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sorcerer 1 / Enlightened Fist 2

Edit: Also, I am surprised that Aescetic Mage was not on your list of feats.

In War of the Burning Sky, there is an improved version of that feat called East Wind Style (IIRC).