Monks are Balanced?

[GreyLord]

No, it's not another thread comparing the Monk to a Fighter...but instead something that I'm thinking Monks are extremely effective at doing. Everyone talks about how powerful spellcasters are...and many times focus on how powerful Wizards can get...but the 3.5 Monk seems designated as a Wizard Killer.

Perhaps ONLY a wizard killer...but at the minimum something a Wizard should fear (I thought Rogues would be he ones to be fearful of...a good sneak and a good SA first round could probably kill the wizard, or with some potent poison of a magical piercing weapon of some sort to disable the wizard...and the coup de grace the wizard or cleric or whomever...BUT...I digress on the Rogue).

They have their AC that actually rises to a pretty good number in relation to a Wizards BAB, meaning touch attacks are the least effective against the Monk simply because many times the wizard won't even be able to land them.

The monk not only gets some good saves, but some special abilities designated specifically against some of a Wizard's better spells.

Add in the ability to use skills (with effective skill usage) to tumble through the enemy front lines of fighters and such to get to the Wizard in the back, with the hastened movement/speed to get there rapidly...

It seems a Monk might not be the one to kill of all the monsters or compete with the Fighter on damage dealing...but against wizards the Monk seems particularly useful.

Of course there are those that would detract...so give your thoughts.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

At low levels, he might be. But by mid levels, the best wizard killer is another wizard or cleric. High speed and Improved Grapple will only get you so far.

Most of monk's benefits are defensive, but they don't protect against nearly all the awful things a wizard can do to you, so you can't count on the SR and high saves to protect you. And offensively monk is just bad.


The best non-caster caster killers are more like this:

1) Imperious Command demoralizer, preferably Barbarian with Intimidating Rage feat and either Instantaneous Rage feat or the Ferocity variant: chain-locks the mage so he can't do anything at all, and with the barb stuff, can use it out of turn to disrupt his action.

2) Horrendously large reach + Mage Slayer line of feats + Thicket of Blades stance + Stand Still feat (optional): Pretty simple. Make yourself into a difficult terrain effect. Won't work if the wizard has teleportation magic or can go ethereal, so getting a dimensional anchor effect or the like on your weapon greatly helps.

3) Whisper Gnome sneak attacker (doesn't have to be a rogue) with Darkstalker feat, Silencing Strike feat, and Extra Silence. Sneak up so he never sees you coming, and cut his throat so he's silenced, then finish him off.

4) Uber charger build with flight and pounce, and as many initiative boosters as possible: Pretty simple. Become the melee equivalent of an "instant death" spell... If you can get to act first and he doesn't have Celerity, Abrupt Jaunt, or the like (pretty unlikely if he's really optimized...), he just plain dies.

That's more along the lines of how to stop a caster.

And again, it's easier to just be a caster yourself.

 

[kitcik]

Monks ARE wizard killers under the following (not so unusual as you might think) circumstances:

- the wizard is primarily a blaster, and
- the wizard is designed / played suboptimally (this often happens with NPC wizards who are not the primary antagonist)
- EDIT: the character level is low to mid

That said, if you have equally well-played wizards and monks, the monk will be useless and stand around until the wizard gets to him in the killing priority (somewhere near the bottom of the list, since the monk is not a threat).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And, FWIW, all the same can be said of the other "Caster Killer" class, the Soulknife.

The abilities may be there, but thy come at the wrong levels (IOW, too late) and require getting too close...while the casters become far too adept at keeping foes at range.

And I love Monks & Soulknives.

 

[GreyLord]

Once through the monk seems o have a 50/50 chance of killing the wizard of equal level outright though....with high speed it seems better odds at killing the wizard than vice versa?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not really- many defensive spells- and some of the offensive ones- shift the odds greatly in the favor of the casters...and they tend to be on the short lists of most well-played casters. By the time the caster killer gets there, the caster will be prepared to take him on.

For Monks (and Soulknives) to truly be caster killers over the course of their entire progressions, they'd need magic-like ways to buff themselves (for speed, damage output or the like)* or a way to shrug off/dispel magical effects. And even that may not be enough if the caster buffs himself with something like a Polymorph spell.

The problem isn't that the Monk & SK aren't balanced- they are exquisetely so- it's that they are balanced at a level no other classes are, and that their "prey" is on the other side of the power scale.

To put it differently, caster killers are like crocs and casters are like hippos: the killers can get 'em while they're young and inexperienced, but after they come fully into their maturity, the fight is generally one-sided.





* such as can be found for the Soulknife in a PrCl in Hyperconscious which combines their mind blade progression with some PsyWar powers.

 

[GreyLord]

Not really- many defensive spells- and some of the offensive ones- shift the odds greatly in the favor of the casters...and they tend to be on the short lists of most well-played casters. By the time the caster killer gets there, the caster will be prepared to take him on.

For Monks (and Soulknives) to truly be caster killers over the course of their entire progressions, they'd need magic-like ways to buff themselves (for speed, damage output or the like)* or a way to shrug off/dispel magical effects. And even that may not be enough if the caster buffs himself with something like a Polymorph spell.

The problem isn't that the Monk & SK aren't balanced- they are exquisetely so- it's that they are balanced at a level no other classes are, and that their "prey" is on the other side of the power scale.

To put it differently, caster killers are like crocs and casters are like hippos: the killers can get 'em while they're young and inexperienced, but after they come fully into their maturity, the fight is generally one-sided.





* such as can be found for the Soulknife in a PrCl in Hyperconscious which combines their mind blade progression with some PsyWar powers.

But as the Caster is spending money to gain spells, the Monk who doesn't have to worry about the money would be spending on buffing themselves up. A Monk built right is basically immune to all spells by 14th level, and can kill, even a poorly prepped Monk 50% of the time on a single hit to the Caster at 15th level...while a Monk who's worked on their wisdom should have a MUCH better percentage than that to kill the Caster.

The Monk shouldn't be worried about Money or armor, none of that would do anything against a caster...if concentrated, it's all going into becoming immune to magic and killing casters in one hit. The common mistake I see is that people worry too much about the Monk being on par with a warrior or a wizard in killing the melee types, when in reality the Monk is more built to kill the big powerful wizard by slipping through the frontlines and wizard defenses promptly with their move, and using their action as the kill button.

PS:Brought this up because had a player at 16th level join our game recently, and they have A quivering Palm which a Wizard has to make a 35 Fort Save against. They have a +27 Will Not inclusive of normal bonuses, +20 Ref, and a +18 Fort.

After our first session, UNLESS I BUILD A WIZARD specifically to counter the Monk, which I think is especially cheesy, afterall, most Wizards will deal with Warriors, Thieves, goblins...and all sorts of other things rather than Monks...I don't see how I can have the NPC Wizard simply survive the Monks Quivering Palm. the Monk also likes to Stunlock foes if that fails, but there are some counters to that.

We've only had one session thus far, but their handling of their Monk impressed me. Was also effective again overall against others as well. Plus, the quivering palm only works once a week, but still...used it to one shot a BBEG last session...and the Fort needed to make that save sort of stunned me.

 

[kitcik]

Monks ARE balanced:

And now back to our regularly shgceduled programming.

No. Monks cannot defeat (properly played) casters at 15th level. It does not matter what they are immune to. As far as money, note that casters get 2 free spells of their choice per level, so 30 chosen spells by level 15. They use those spells to either buff themselves or create effects to which you are not immune and have no save. You then enter thesse effects as you plan to attack the wizard and are disabled in suh a way that you can no longer effect them, while they deal with your life as it pleases them.

I am not a caster-player, so I would probably screw this up, but assume, for a start, that the wizard is flying and invisible (greater). That just basically killed the value of all of your class abilities with 2 spells. Now you are reliant on magic items and open feats. Barring a method to fly and see invisible, he can now kill you with darts.

Obviously, those would be part of your magic items - so now YOU have spent money whereas the wizard has not. So, he has all of his remaining spells and extra wealth to use against you.

If you keep going down this rout, Dandu will challenge you to create a 15th level monk that can take on his 15th level wizard. If things go this way, I advise you to get your d6 ready - you will soon be rolling a new character...

 

[kitcik]

PS:Brought this up because had a player at 16th level join our game recently, and they have A quivering Palm which a Wizard has to make a 35 Fort Save against.

First, the wizard should not get hit by the monk, and QP requires a successful hit. So something is wrong to start off with.

Next, QP is ineffective if you are immune to critical hits. Why is the wizard not immune? It's not that expensive.

Now, let's examine that DC.

DC = 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis mod = 10 + 8 + Wis mod = 18 + Wis mod
This implies a Wis mod of 17 or a Wisdom of 44.
Assuming they started at 18 and gained 4 from levels, that implies +22 from items.
WBL for 16th level is 260,000. A periapt +6 is 36,000 and a Tome +5 is 137,500, so most of his wealth is gone and he is only 1/2 way there. Hmm...

 

[xigbar]

If you keep going down this rout, Dandu will challenge you to create a 15th level monk that can take on his 15th level wizard. If things go this way, I advise you to get your d6 ready - you will soon be rolling a new character...

I'm getting my hourglass out. I'd bet money on character sheets appearing before it runs out.