Monster Saving Throw Change.

[Leatherhead]

OK, I don't like the saving throw bonus Solos and Elites get, it discourages anyone other than an orbwizard from using a "save ends" spell on them. On the other hand, orbwizards can eventually total overpower any monsters saving throw bonus, even going so far as making it nearly impossible for the monster to save against their spells. And I do so hate the idea of an important monster just sitting their not being able to do anything at all while the PC's play "whack the pinata" till the EXP and loot comes out, even if it is due to bad luck.

I am thinking about implementing a change that helps these problems out.

My current Idea is that all monsters start out with a +0 bonus on their saving throw (barring race bonuses) then Elites and Solos gain a bonus to their saving throws after every failed save. For now I am toying with Elites gaining a +2 bonus after every failed save, and Solos gaining a +4 bonus after every save. Then if that doesn't help then I am going to bump them up to +3 and +5 respectively.

I am wondering if anyone else has tried something like this out, and how did it end up? I checked back a few pages to look, but nothing jumped out at me.

 

[Sphyre]

I actually like the saving throw bonus along with all the solo/elite design. 3rd edition had a problem with making bad guys that actually lived long enough to be bad guys, but also that weren't so 'badass' that they could TPK by sneezing.

I haven't used that many solo or elites, but when I do, I make sure the party feels like it's a real threat, and part of that is that they can't lock the enemy down for very long.

Now, I'm not just saying this because I want to rain on your parade, because I don't but I've noticed that I actually like the saving throw bonuses when I use an elite or solo. I haven't found there to be a need to reduce the save bonus when you use elites/solos sparingly.

So in a kind of roundabout way, I haven't tried it because I haven't seen a need. The biggest thing I can see with the change though, is that elites and solos will be less scary, as they will be able to be locked down easier. Unless you feel like you're already walking over the PCs with them, it may not be necessary.

Of course, nothing's stopping you from not even telling your players, trying out your houserule and seeing how it affects things. For the most part, if someone has a save effect though, usually they should expect to get one turn out of the effect, and milk it if it doesn't save rather than crying over spilled milk because something made a save. Saves are easy to make even without bonuses. (55% chance)

 

[Leatherhead]

I haven't used that many solo or elites, but when I do, I make sure the party feels like it's a real threat, and part of that is that they can't lock the enemy down for very long.

Well that is part of the problem: most of the time those spiffy daily powers that they are using end up lasting for one round, and it feels somewhat wasted or even futile at that point. If the scary dragon just shrugs everything they can throw off without a sweat, it has a rather large negative effect on the moral of the group. But there are those rare occasions where the powers last for a significant amount of the battle and it just makes the scary dragon into an overgrown lizard.

Now, I'm not just saying this because I want to rain on your parade, because I don't but I've noticed that I actually like the saving throw bonuses when I use an elite or solo. I haven't found there to be a need to reduce the save bonus when you use elites/solos sparingly.

I am actually running the H series of adventures (with a few additions) at the moment, My group is currently at the tail-end of H2 and about to assault the final boss. Solo an Elite fights tend to stand out for me.

So in a kind of roundabout way, I haven't tried it because I haven't seen a need. The biggest thing I can see with the change though, is that elites and solos will be less scary, as they will be able to be locked down easier. Unless you feel like you're already walking over the PCs with them, it may not be necessary.

That was the general idea of it, at least for the first two failed saves. I may not have made it clear, but the bonus is supposed to stack with itself going from +0 to +2 then +4 etc. or +0 to +4 then +8 etc. The idea is after the PC's get a few rounds of glory, the monsters break free and unleash bloody havoc as they are want to do, with nothing seeming completely useless or trivial.

Of course, nothing's stopping you from not even telling your players, trying out your houserule and seeing how it affects things. For the most part, if someone has a save effect though, usually they should expect to get one turn out of the effect, and milk it if it doesn't save rather than crying over spilled milk because something made a save. Saves are easy to make even without bonuses. (55% chance)

I suppose I am going to have to, but I was just wondering if anyone else saw these kinds of issues and if they had done anything about it.

 

[keterys]

The problem is that daze and stun are the same save as, say, ongoing 5... it's fine and all for the latter to last another round, but not fine for the former.

 

[Obryn]

In a fight with a full group of enemies, you have 5 creatures / 5 characters. It's a 1:1 action ratio.

If you include an Elite, you're looking at 4 creatures / 5 characters, so it's a 4:5 action ratio.

For a fight including a solo, it's 1 creature / 5 characters, so now it's a 1:5 action ratio.

Any effects which reduce the number of actions a creature can take is disproportionately effective against Elites or Solos - moreso the latter than the former.

The Saving Throw bonus is, afaik, to keep encounters pretty well balanced so you can't just keep Orcus stunned forever. And while it's no big deal to have Orcus keep taking ongoing damage, it's quite a big deal to have him sit there while the party just beats up on him.

Remember that stunning and dazing effects always work for at least 1 round, since the save comes at the end. Against a solo, again, this is disproportionately valuable - it's like you've stunned or dazed 5 creatures, not just one.

-O

 

[Runestar]

The Saving Throw bonus is, afaik, to keep encounters pretty well balanced so you can't just keep Orcus stunned forever.

Apparently, now with adventurer's vault, now you can.

May be time to rethink that new save mechanic...

 

[keterys]

You could even before AV.

Maybe solos should get a save before and after their turns