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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Phlebas" data-source="post: 4358976" data-attributes="member: 23810">That is a very good way of looking at it - even if i double the survivability and hence the actions of the monster, it still doesn't replicate the effect of paired attacks. I'm pretty much convinced that CR +1 would be an appropriate baseline for maxing out the HP's. and in some cases maybe even less than thatFair points all, just that in my game, which is a low magic silver standard game (1/10 of treasure) thats just hit level 12, I basically want beasties without huge number of save or die / megadeath attacks (ie slightly lower CR) but with some survivability (ie more hp's) to give the PC's an appropriate challenge. And for my next campaign which is likely to be pathfinder based I wanted some way to adjust the challenge as I went alongI don't actually have the 4E books - I just read up on the web and browsed a freinds set for ideas. Although I'm sure a elite template wouldn't be too difficult (though might need elite melee, elite spellcaster, elite sneak) i'm basically trying to avoid templates and try to keep things simple. (wow multiquote function sure makes posts like this quicker! )</blockquote>