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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JayOmega" data-source="post: 819279" data-attributes="member: 8650">OK, Sigil pointed out that a pure blast-'em Theurge was more powerful  than a wizard or cleric in the same role.  Let's look at this more  deeply.First, he showed that the theurge has more power (by 2%, but that's  still more) versus individuals than versus groups.Take fully-loaded blast-'em characters at 20th level.  Default stat  array is 15, 14, ... so give them Int 15 and Wis 14 to start.  Both  put all five +1's for level advancement into Int.  For full blasting  power, both are specialists for the extra wizard spells, and the  Theurge can use all his domain spells for damage, using the  hypothetical "Kaboom" domain.  To take down strong monsters, both  characters have both of the Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats,  for +4 to DC and +4 to beat SR.  Both use spells resisted by Reflex  saves, and they are the sort of spell that does half damage on a  successful saving throw (i.e. standard blasting spells).The wizard buys a +6-ability item and a +5-ability book for 173500.  The Theurge, to be balanced, should spend the same, netting two +6 items and a +4 book. So Wizard has Int 31, Theurge has Int 30, Wis 20.  (The Theurge makes out like a fat rat on this, as Int 30 and Int 31 are equivalent stats.)Spells per day (base + stat + bonuses):Wiz: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 40 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1-------------------5 8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 his spells have saving throw DC = 24+level, and his versus-SR rolls  are at +24.Theurge: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 0 00 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 + 0 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 - -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 + 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - ------------------------------------------5 8 8 7 7 7 7 5 4 3 + 6 8 7 6 6 5 3 2 0 0 Save 24+Level, vs SR +21 for Wiz spells, and Save 19+Level, vs SR +17 for Cleric spells.Or, assume the Theurge can max out his stats, buying two +6 items and  two +5 books.  The extra money he spends versus the wizard could buy  the wizard two Rings of Wizardry, a type II and a type IV.  Theurge  now has Int 31 and Wis 25.Spells per day:Wiz as above, plus two rings: ---------------------5  8 12 7 11 7 7 6 6 6 Save 24+L, vs SR +24Theurge:4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 0 00 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 + 0 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 - -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 + 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - ------------------------------------------5 8 8 7 7 7 7 5 4 3 + 6 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 0 0 Save 24+L, vs SR +21, Save 21+L, vs SR +17So, against an infinite line of Orcs (no SR, can't make saves except  on a 20), they have blasting ability of:Wiz I:5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20 = 795 dicereduced for saving throws to: 775 diceTheurge I:5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 +6x0 8x1 7x5 6x10 6x10 5x13 3x13 2x13 0x13 0x13 = 932 dicereduced for saving throws to: 908 diceAdvantage, Theurge by +17%.Wiz II:5x1 8x5 12x5 7x10 11x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20 = 855 dicereduced for saving throws to: 833 diceTheurge II:5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 + 6x0 8x1 8x5 7x10 6x10 5x13 4x13 3x13 0x13 0x13 = 973 dicereduced for saving throws to: 948 diceAdvantage, Theurge by +14%.So, against worthless foes, the Theurge is stronger.But why are 20th level characters blasting Orcs?  Let's put them up against the only 3.5th monster we've seen, the Revised Pit Fiend.   His reflex saving throw is his worst one, at +19 (and he uses Unholy  Aura in the "0th" round to make it +23) and his SR is 32.  No CR is  given for the RPF, but I assume he's a fair fight for a 20th level  group containing our 20th level Wizard and/or Theurge.(The following lines are base spells, % that get by SR, % damage  after saving throws, and remaining "effective dice" of damage)Wiz I:5x1  8x5  8x5  7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20.650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650.525 .550 .575 .600 .625 .650 .675 .700 .725 .750-------------------------------------------------1.70 14.3 15.0 27.3 28.4 44.4 46.1 54.6 56.6 58.5 = 346.9 dice Theurge I: 5x1  8x5  8x5  7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17.500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500.525 .550  .575 .600   .625 .650  .675 .700   .725 .750-------------------------------------------------1.3  11.0 11.5 21.0 21.9 34.1 35.4 29.8 24.7 19.16x0  8x1  7x5  6x10 6x10 5x13 3x13 2x13 0x13 0x13.300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  --   --.525 .525 .525 .525 .525 .525 .550  .575-------------------------------------------------0.00 1.30 5.50 9.50 9.50 10.2 6.40 4.50           = 256.7 dice Advantage, Wizard by +35%.Wiz II: 5x1  8x5 12x5 7x10 11x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20.650  .650 .650  .650  .650   .650  .650  .650  .650  .650.525 .550 .575 .600   .625  .650  .675 .700   .725 .750--------------------------------------------------1.70  14.3 22.4 27.3 44.7 44.4 46.1 54.6 56.6 58.5 = 370.6 dice Theurge II: 5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 + .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500  .500.525 .550  .575 .600   .625 .650  .675 .700   .725 .750-------------------------------------------------1.30  11.0 11.5 21.0 21.9 34.1 35.4 29.8 24.7 19.16x0  8x1  8x5  7x10 6x10 5x13 4x13 3x13 0x13 0x13.300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  .300  --   --.525 .525 .525 .525 .550  .575 .600   .625-------------------------------------------------0.00 1.30  6.30 11.0 9.90 11.2 9.40 7.30           = 266.2 dice Advantage, Wizard by +39%.Against "real" foes, the Wizard is substantially stronger.  The  Theurge still has more total spells, but I think this shows that the  Theurge really is trading versatility for power.Edit: forgot to mention that this was the 7Wiz/3Clr/10MT version of the Theurge.</blockquote>

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