D&D General Need wheat. Too dangerous. (worldbuilding)

BookTenTiger

He / Him
Also, rabbit starvation is a thing.

Rabbits are so low in fat and carbs that if you just eat them, your body starves to death; it needs fats to metabolize the protein, and there isn't enough in the rabbits.

1635972271085.png
 

log in or register to remove this ad





UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Well if there is 200 K people in waterdeep, and 1.8 more million in the area, it seems pretty settled to me.

Also, I took your geographic instruction and made a rough rectangle of land using a map that calculates distances in FR. I was able to draw a rough rectangle and calculate that the area you depict is roughly 55 000 square miles. based on our previous discussion, where 1 square mile can support 500 people with some magical assistance, that's enough land to support 27 million!

Now, of course the land is not that settled, lots of mountains, moors and such, so as a result we don't have 27 million people living there.
Well I never said that Waterdeep had 200,000 people or 1.8 million in the surrounding are nor did I claim that a square mile would feed 500 or so. What I was claiming, (though I may not have made clear), is that source books that I have read does not describe the area I covered as controlled by Waterdeep, not is it secure or well settled, from memory of the 3rd edition FR guide book and from the description of travel in the Dessarin valley as described in Princes of the Apocalypse.
@Ancalagon, in general, if Waterdeep was a normal medieval city, with that kind of population it would need to, at least control the area I described and has the capacity to control a whole lot more. Rome, controlled the Western Med with less and conquered the Eastern Med while it was at it.
The problem as I see it, it that D&D source books tend to ignore historical demographics, essentially pull number out of thin air and tend not to give cities and kingdoms any kind of secure core area and the game would be better if they did.
 

Your defense of modern maps was to talk about how Ed Greenwood made them when he was 16. So, if he had no creative control over them... why does it matter how old he was when he made them? He doesn't have any creative control over them and hasn't for decades according to you.
Sure, but you didn't make that argument. You made the argument that we should be nice to Greenwood because he created the realms when he was 16, and challenged people if they thought they could do so well when they were 16.
No. I don't know if you are reading what I've actually said or not. But any paraphrasing you are doing regrading my positions and statements is certainly absolutely wrong and inaccurate.

I did not say or imply:
  • That Ed made the maps when he was 16.
  • Nor did I say that he currently has no creative control.
  • Or that we should be nice to Ed.
  • Nor that I challenged if anyone 16 could do better today.

I don't know if you are just hung up on what you think the discussion is, or if you are not discussing with intellectual honesty or not. But it doesn't matter. No one else appears interested in the discussion and I am no longer interested in discussing it with you.
 




Silvercat Moonpaw

Adventurer
I'm pretty sure a quick google will get you 5E stats for that exact monster.
I was making a joke about the intersection of Monty Python and D&D in geek humor.

I mean, with all the "Gotcha!" monsters in the game, you'd think the early designers would have jumped at a man-killing rabbit. The closest I can come up with is the Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I was making a joke about the intersection of Monty Python and D&D in geek humor.

I mean, with all the "Gotcha!" monsters in the game, you'd think the early designers would have jumped at a man-killing rabbit. The closest I can come up with is the Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing.
Oh yeah, I got the joke. I just also happen to know that 5E stats for the Holy Grail Rabbit are floating around on teh interwebs somewhere.
 

cbwjm

Legend
I was just reading the 3e FR campaign book to see what it says about waterdeep, granted the numbers might be different, however it lists as its imports: grain, livestock, leather, ore, timber, and exotic goods from all lands. Seems to me that the city, at the time of writing listed as 1.35 million relies a lot on imports. As a major trade hub, this could come from overseas or from farming communities around Waterdeep, in this case, I'd say the comparison with Rome importing grain from Egypt is a good one.
 

Hussar

Legend
In England, "city" status was something granted by the crown and tied to having a Cathedral.

Town Definition and Example​


Town comes from an Old English word that referred to a walled or fenced place, such as a farm, village, or courtyard.

So, in English, calling large villages "Town"s comes from "a walled village".

Before you disagree with someone about the origin of words, you might want to google "origin of town". It wasn't hard to find.

In the modern day, Town and Village are defined by population in most spots. So is City. But the origin of the terms in English are not the same as how they are used today.
Sorry, but, I don't speak Old English and neither do you. When I said town vs village depends on population, I was referring in the language that we are conversing, not some thousand year old definition that doesn't apply anymore and hasn't applied in centuries.
 

Hussar

Legend
Rome had 1 million people who were kept fed by Egypt and the entire north African coast, thanks to the Roman Empire having complete control over them.

And Waterdeep has 2 million inhabitants.
Not anymore. That 2 million number is no longer true.

City proper is about 130 000 with about up to a million in the territory.
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
I just re-read the title of this thread, and back when I used to play a lot more Settlers of Catan v D&D, my first reaction to hearing the phrase "Need Wheat" would have been "I've got some sheep..."
 

Hussar

Legend
Funny thing is, as I noodle around on Pinterest there are tons of “towns” - walled habitations so as not to confuse the old English speakers among us- that look pretty darn cool.

Would love to see more of that in the setting books.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
No. I don't know if you are reading what I've actually said or not. But any paraphrasing you are doing regrading my positions and statements is certainly absolutely wrong and inaccurate.

I did not say or imply:
  • That Ed made the maps when he was 16.
  • Nor did I say that he currently has no creative control.
  • Or that we should be nice to Ed.
  • Nor that I challenged if anyone 16 could do better today.

I don't know if you are just hung up on what you think the discussion is, or if you are not discussing with intellectual honesty or not. But it doesn't matter. No one else appears interested in the discussion and I am no longer interested in discussing it with you.

Ah, the classic "you are probably be lying so I'm not talking to you." I happens every single time I talk to people on this forum. Glad to keep the trend up.

Let's see... this post? The first one I responded to?


The Forgotten Realms was created by an 8 year old American boy. At least that is when Ed wrote his first stories of it. He created the D&D setting at age 16 in 1975.

I think perhaps you give anyone too much credit for being able to produce a viable world that accounted for agriculture, commerce, etc at that age and in those years prior to the internet and the mass availability of knowledge that would allow such today.
I know its fun to poke at Americans, but really, I don't think what you want could have been done by any child the world over in those years.

(And no, I'm not a fan of the Realms, but I do often run games set there because it is readily available and good enough setting for the feel that interests me.)


Now, I will admit, going back to look, I see I did misread that last line there about how you don't believe that what we are talking about could have been down by any child in the world.

However, the large structure of your post is still the same, and I still challenge it. Yes, Ed Greenwood made the realms when he was 8. Yes, he helped create the DnD setting when he was 16. The Realms have not been static since 1975. Ed Greenwood isn't even the creative force behind the modern Realms according to your more recent posts, since you scoffed at the idea that the map of Phandalin which we talked about in this thread was made by him.

We literally, in 2014, had the Second Sundering. Time and Space were ripped apart in the Realms and things were changed. No 16 year olds were involved in this process, as a matter of obvious fact. So, there was yet again a chance that minor details like this could have been changed, and going back and saying that no one in 1975 could have made the setting care about those things, and especially not a 16 year old teenager who made the setting when he was 8, misses the point. Adult men have been writing, refining, and changing the Realms for decades. They could have chosen to change it.

And, again, I understand the argument of "why change what is working" that's a fair point. But the idea of "Well, the Realms were created by a 16 yr old in 1975 so you really can't expect these things from it" is just ignoring the fact that the Realms has been changed and evolved many times since 1975.



We don't need to discuss this further, I don't care to defend the position of "Adults have worked on the Realms for the past 40+ years" because I find it rather self-evident.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Sorry, but, I don't speak Old English and neither do you. When I said town vs village depends on population, I was referring in the language that we are conversing, not some thousand year old definition that doesn't apply anymore and hasn't applied in centuries.


Both the statements "Town means walled villiage" and "Town means a settlement of a certain size, depending on juristiction" are true, and rely on different modern English meanings of "mean". But disagreeing with one and saying "actually" the other is simply wrong; the use you disagreed with is perfectly colloquial English.

Your error was not understanding modern English. Words, including "mean", mean more than one thing.

---

Anyhow, using Town vs Villiage for walled and unwalled in D&D would make a lot of sense.

In my headcannon, "suoerstitious" rites are performed - hedge magic - to secure dwellings and settlements and roads against monsters. Individual homes would be warded thus way.

Villiages would be clumps of such individual homes. Then a low grade stone wall with rudimentary warding would be added; as it progresses, the villiage would be upgraded to town.

Using catheral city for the definition of City also works along these lines; a cathedral would be a ritual anchor for the wards of a settlement. Its spire a magical antenna for ley lines, the services prayer wheels fueling the wards.
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top