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WOIN O.L.D. & N.E.W. Errata Thread

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This thread lists minor changes or corrections which you can apply immediately without waiting for a major playtest document update. It doesn't deal with typos and the like, but with actual changes or rules mistakes. I'll keep this updated up until the next playtest document release.

Errata


  • Starting tier does NOT get a +1 LUC/REP bonus as mentioned in the tier table in the Advancement section. The LUC/REP bonus starts at Heroic.
  • MENTAL DEFENSE is calculated the same way (using the same table) as DEFENSE. Ignore any legacy references to 10+(WILx3) or the like.
  • Vulnerability does not bypass SOAK. It simply adds the bonus 1 or 2 dice of damage.
  • Vertical jump can never be greater than horizontal jump. Treat the horizontal jump value as a cap on what vertical can be, unless a monster or special ability says otherwise.
  • This is in O.L.D. but somehow got left out of N.E.W. You can only take a skill once per tier. A starting character can only take any given skill once. You can't start with 5x marksman, for example. 5 ranks in a skill is pretty much "best in the world". Ignore any skillx2 prerequisites for careers or traditions.
  • As a core combat option, attack dice are traded for damage dice. This is an important part of combat, and without it a character may find it difficult to do much damage. Before making an attack roll, the attacker must choose how many of those attack dice in his pool he wishes to sacrifice for additional damage. He can do this at a 2:1 ratio (for every two attack dice he removes, he gets an additional damage dice; the Deadly Strike combat trick improves this to a 1:1 ratio). This means that a highly competent or very strong attacker will be able to deliver more lethal, damaging blows or shots. A giant robot, for example, may have a 10d6 attack pool due to its great strength, but its metal fists only do 3d6 damage; it would tend to use much of that attack pool to boost that damage up to 4d6 or 6d6 damage.
  • Deadly Strike (AGI or STR 5+): An additional 1 die damage can be exchanged for one attack die. For a ranged attack, this is likely a headshot. This stacks at a 1:1 basis, but can only gain you a bonus 1 die.
  • Characters begin play with one free combat trick of their choice plus either Aim or Feint.
  • Ambidexterity: only allows one extra attack per turn (total).
  • Smallfolk are 3' high with an average weight of 90lb, not 4' and 140 lb as indicated in the table.
  • When designing races/species, start at a base of 3 for each attribute, not 2 as the text notes. Consequently, lizardmen have the following starting attributes: STR 4, AGI 2, END 3, INT 3, WIL 4, CHA 3. The poison breatch should do 2d6 poison damage, not 3d6.
  • There's a simpler XP formula for monsters. Add its highest three attributes and apply a tier multiplier. More info here.
  • O.L.D. mage tradition - replace AGI increases with INT increases.
  • XP expenditure on skills and the like should be changed as follows:
    • Improving an existing skill at a cost of 100 x the new skill rank (note that the maximum number of skill ranks are limited by tier).
    • Learn a new skill at a cost of 500 XP.
      Increase an attribute at a cost of 500 x the new attribute score.
    • Change your character trait at a cost of 500 XP.
    • Advance a grade in an existing tradition at a cost of 1000 x the new level.

Additional Material




Proposed Changes for Next Playtest Update




  • [*=left]You can choose STR or AGI for any melee attack. You can choose to accomplish the same task through brute force or finesse.
    [*=left]You can choose STR or AGI to calculate your SPEED bonus.
    [*=left]DEFENSE will be increasing slightly by a couple of points.
    [*=left]Carrying capacity will be reduced.
    [*=left]Herbalism and alchemy will be altered, with the max MP of a concoction being defined by grades in each tradition
    [*=left]Some fairly large-scale tweaking to the Elements of Magic chapter of O.L.D.
    [*=left]New XP system
 
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Hadaraii

Villager
Question about taking skills more than once

Nice going on the RPG. I kicked in to your kickstarter, and I'm going through the manuals (especially NEW). I've built a few characters, and 2 ships, and I've tried a couple of combat scenarios. Creating characters seems to take a little less than an hour. The ship took me about the same, maybe less.

Combat was lively and quick. Everything seems to work pretty well. The exploding dice is a really exciting mechanism - I always look for my red dice first now! I'll post more about it later.

There was one thing that had me confused in character creation. In the errata, you state that a skill can only be taken once per TIER. I think you meant, career track - right? If I want piloting, I can pick it up once as a navy brat, once as a space jockey, and once as Pilot I, but I can't take it again as Pilot II or Pilot III. Right?

I built a character generator in Excel using lookup tables, and it makes it much faster to build a few characters (once you ignore the 15 hours or so I've put into the character generator). I realize that a lot of the values and text will change, but I did it for fun. Would you like a copy of it? I only have about half the careers in there so far, and some fields still have to be entered manually. I also created my own character sheets - it's all yours if you wish.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I mean per tier - starting, heroic, etc. Beginning characters taking the same skill 5 times, making them the best in the universe at it, are a bad bad thing! You have to earn your "best in the universe" status!

Absolutely, please do share your spreadsheet here! How awesome! Seeing stuff people make is the most exciting part of this whole thing for me!
 

Hadaraii

Villager
Well, alright then.

Well, alright then. That will make for more rounded characters (a wider range of skills if they can't add up).

It may feel a little off for some characters though... I have a brute soldier with low agility that had a few ranks of marksman to get his attack dice up, who probably can't hit worth a damn now (even though his most recent career was sniper). My pilot that has much higher agility will probably outshoot him any day. I'll try to upload the revised character sheets tomorrow.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Clumsy is probably not a desired characteristic of a gunman! Is he good at punching things?
 

Sniperfox47

Villager
Apologies if this has been mentioned already, or if this is the wrong place to post them, but I noticed a pair of cosmetic issues with the playtest document that may be worth slipping into the errata. These issues were both in the OLD playtest document; I haven't looked through the NEW document too much yet.

1) Heal spell lists (p. 149) list valid targets as being virtues and elements, however Cleric I (p. 41) grants "Heal Animal" which is a creature target. [edit: Ranger also grants "Heal Animal". Is it safe to assume that Heal targets creature types?]

2) page 108 says that a spellcaster can learn spell lists by spending experience, but the experience table on page 59 only lists the cost of learning psionic powers, not spell lists.

Also, while not specifically an errata issue, it may be worth explicitly stating creature type for player characters, in terms of their interaction with spells. I noticed for example that the Elven Assassin monster was listed as fey. Does that mean one or both of the elven character races are fey? Or are they animals like human PCs? The only Player race I saw with a type listing was android and they were listed as mechanoid which isn't one of the types listed in the magic section of Old anyways.
 
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docdoom77

Villager

Proposed Changes for Next Playtest Update




  • [*=left]You can choose STR or AGI for any melee attack. You can choose to accomplish the same task through brute force or finesse.
    [*=left]You can choose STR or AGI to calculate your SPEED bonus.
    [*=left]DEFENSE may be increasing slightly by a couple of points.
    [*=left]Carrying capacity will be reduced.
I like all of this. Looks good!
 

barasawa

Explorer
Trait talk

Clumsy is probably not a desired characteristic of a gunman! Is he good at punching things?
Taking a cue from numerous movies, the clumsy hero is rarely hit by sneak attacks and traps, he/she usually trips out of the way at just the exact right moment, etc. Also, good at taking a fall without getting hurt, or at least not seriously. Of course, they'll be tripping and falling and dropping things a other inappropriate times, but I can totally see a player declaring that they try to dodge the fireball by accidentally trip and falling behind the rock, or couch, or whatever. If someone is having an issue with a trait for a low attribute possibly giving a bonus to actions, remember, each character has one trait, and it gives a 1 die bonus. That doesn't exclude negatives from getting that bonus. (-Int Forgetful could use that bonus to resist interrogation for example. "Oh gawd don't kill me! I can't remember anything when I'm staring down a gun barrel.")

Of course, I'd think a gunman would have a good agility for ranged combat, and so wouldn't qualify for the low agility requirement. (Obviously that doesn't explain Vash the Stampede. He's on the other side of the coin and is just pretending to be clumsy.)

How to employ this in game terms. I'm not comfortable at writing this one up at the moment, other than it being a -AGI trait, so I'll leave it to someone more experienced for now. I just started reading the playtest info. I want to go for the kickstarter, but I need enough available on the card to cover it and the exchange variable which is an unknown. (Darn fluctuating exchange rates.)

Just a side note on Traits, they seem to be heavily clustered on a few attributes, and an insufficient low attribute ones. Here's a breakdown with the number of Positives (+) and Negatives (-) for each.

Strength +3/-0
Agility +1/-0
Endurance +1/-0
Intelligence +4/-0
Will +2/-4
Charisma +9/-3
Luck +1/-0
Reputation +0/-0
Magic-Psionics +0/-0

As you can see, Charisma is the god of traits with a total of 12 possible, while of the primaries, Agility and Endurance have only 1, and only two of the primaries have negative traits.

Now I added Reputation and Magic-Psi there since Luck has a trait. Also, Psionics and Magic are primary attributes in some campaigns, so it seems they should get some love as well.

A couple of Rep examples could be:
-Rep Guttertrash. You are obviously nobody important and get ignored a lot.
+Rep Infamous. Everybody has heard of your exploits, at least the more questionable ones.
+Rep Ingratiating. You know how to work the social scene.

Ok, I've babbled too long for one post.
 

osutuba

Villager
I built a character generator in Excel using lookup tables, and it makes it much faster to build a few characters (once you ignore the 15 hours or so I've put into the character generator). I realize that a lot of the values and text will change, but I did it for fun. Would you like a copy of it? I only have about half the careers in there so far, and some fields still have to be entered manually. I also created my own character sheets - it's all yours if you wish.
I went to the page and didn't see this. Care to share?
 

osutuba

Villager
Suggestion - Skills

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.

For example, does taking Unarmed give you +1 die to attack, damage, or both? Also, what stats do each skill listed use for their basis (e.g., Intimidate can use STR and CHA, depending on what you use).

You don't have to go into detail a la the Skills Chapter in the D&D books, though ... that would push this book to well over 300 pages. I leave that option completely up to you.

Another thing: On the original character sheet you have a skill marked "Specialization", but you don't mention anywhere in the rulebook whether this is the bold skill that is affiliated with your race (if not human) or if you choose one and what benefit (if any) that grants you.
 

Sniperfox47

Villager
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but this is the way I read it.

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.
Skills add +1 die to any *attribute* check for which the player can give a justification that they should be able to add +1 die to their roll. It relies on a system of implicit trust between the DM and player, rather than the system of explicit mechanics most RPGs use.

For example, does taking Unarmed give you +1 die to attack, damage, or both? Also, what stats do each skill listed use for their basis (e.g., Intimidate can use STR and CHA, depending on what you use).
It gives you +1 die to unarmed attacks , and +1 die on any *attribute* check you can justify getting a bonus from it. For example you're trying to burst open a door with a martial art kick, so your unarmed fighting training grants you +1 die on your strength check to kick the door in half. Since damage is not an attribute check, and it's not listed under the special skills section it's not affected by your skill.

You don't have to go into detail a la the Skills Chapter in the D&D books, though ... that would push this book to well over 300 pages. I leave that option completely up to you.
Skills in this and skills in D&D operate completely differently. If you're comparing the two you're looking at it wrong. Skills in this are more akin to the skill focus feats than to the skills themselves from D&D.

Another thing: On the original character sheet you have a skill marked "Specialization", but you don't mention anywhere in the rulebook whether this is the bold skill that is affiliated with your race (if not human) or if you choose one and what benefit (if any) that grants you.
No clue on this one. If I had to guess I'd say it's either a holdover from an old version of skills or a feature that's in the planning stages.
 

osutuba

Villager
Thanks for the clarification. I am so used to the AD&D rule set that I expected something like that in this system.
 

Atom Mlatom

Registered User
Confusion about Weapon Quality table

On the table specifying the benefits of higher quality weapons, it heads a column with "Attack & Damage" for how many bonus dice. Is this bonus meant to be duplicated in both the attack and damage rolls, or is it just singularly pooled into the attack dice per the new mechanic of damage buying?
 

Sniperfox47

Villager
On the table specifying the benefits of higher quality weapons, it heads a column with "Attack & Damage" for how many bonus dice. Is this bonus meant to be duplicated in both the attack and damage rolls, or is it just singularly pooled into the attack dice per the new mechanic of damage buying?
Based on the sample weapons it's applied to both in the current playtest document pre-errata. It's possible that this may change with the new system but I wouldn't think so.

If left as it is it'd make more sense; a weapon made via a superior method would be easier to wield (attack bonus), would do damage more easily (damage bonus), and better withstand powerful strikes with the weapon (ability to trade the extra attack dice for damage when you need them).
 

barasawa

Explorer
Skill questions and comment

I would suggest writing a short chapter that helps explain the benefits of skills. You mention the benefits of some skills (e.g., Running adds 1 to your SPEED stat), but lack a more comprehensive listing.

...
I understand that the list of skills is an incomplete list of suggested skills, though the ones listed for race and specific traditions is more than suggested. However, I do agree that they could use some description.

Of course, the Rule Zero always applies, but it's usually better to avoid issues and butting heads by making things clear at the beginning. In this case, that would be at character creation. (I've seen a lot of people totally wrap their character concept about one single thing. That includes me a few times.)

On my part, this is just a request and suggestion. I'm sure you've all seen stuff like this go a bit sour in other games when something basic and possible vital is disagreed on by players.

Though I do have a specific question. What the heck use is Meditation?! Sure, in the real world, it's supposed to be a way to 'center yourself'. Pretty much everyone recognizes it as the old sitting down mumbling mantras and basically doing nothing. I really don't see that having a game effect, other than expending time out of combat, which of course, you don't need to take actions to do. In other games, I've seen meditation used for many things, negating penalties, stopping poison, recharging magic, doing ritual magics, asking the GM questions, and so many others. This is something that seems it should be on the special skills list. Since it's not, I'd just ignore it and toss it out as only a hobby skill, but it's on the list of several traditions, so it must have some kind of function. If it's in the doc somewhere, I haven't read it yet, but that's possible. Of course, the effects of any skill is pretty much assumed to be listed in the skills area.

Along with Meditation, I feel I have to ask what's up with Dungeoneering? Humans have that on their skill list. Wait, humans are adventuring so much they all go on weekend dungeon crawls or something? Also, ignoring D&D for now, what the heck is it used for? Identifying secret doors, crossing over old rickety bridges, or every trap check and treasure search in an adventure? Maybe it's for designing and constructing dungeons, a dungeon engineer. It really seems that a sentence, possibly a short one, might clear that up.

Hey, I like it, and was finally able to convince the spouse to let me kickstart it (she usually has my entire check spent down to the cent 2 weeks before I get it), so please don't take this as a negative. After all, from the writers viewpoint I'm pretty sure there was a clear conception of what all those were, it's just us second hand readers that are wondering.

It does seem that a number of skills in the samples list overlap a lot if not completely, but that's ok, as it's an 'Open' list, so expect some synonyms. So if some were to be clarified, the ones in the Races and Traditions are probably the ones most likely to receive that attention.

Again, I'm babbling a whole lot. I'm a lousy writer and it's my vain attempt to try and make myself understood, while attempting to shoehorn in everything I'm thinking of, so it tends to run on like this sentence does.
 
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Sniperfox47

Villager
Though I do have a specific question. What the heck use is Meditation?! Sure, in the real world, it's supposed to be a way to 'center yourself'. Pretty much everyone recognizes it as the old sitting down mumbling mantras and basically doing nothing. I really don't see that having a game effect, other than expending time out of combat, which of course, you don't need to take actions to do. In other games, I've seen meditation used for many things, negating penalties, stopping poison, recharging magic, doing ritual magics, asking the GM questions, and so many others. This is something that seems it should be on the special skills list. Since it's not, I'd just ignore it and toss it out as only a hobby skill, but it's on the list of several traditions, so it must have some kind of function. If it's in the doc somewhere, I haven't read it yet, but that's possible. Of course, the effects of any skill is pretty much assumed to be listed in the skills area.
The skill can be used to benefit anything it can be reasonably rationalized to benefiting (The playtest document uses the word "relevant". Reasonably rationalized is my interpretation of that, based on the example.).

For example, I realize I've been poisoned so due to my skill with meditation I do exercises to give me a +1 die bonus on my... END(?) check to resist the poisons effects.

Or I'm trying to cast a full-minute spell to stab someone with a lance of ice. My knowledge of meditation let's me do mental exercises to steady my emotions and let me cast better, giving me +1 die to my magic attack check (an opposed magic attribute check) but not on my damage since that's not an attribute check.

If the same player tried to use meditation to benefit a single-action signature spell they wouldn't be able to however because any *reasonable* rationalization of how meditation would help would require some minimum amount of time.

Along with Meditation, I feel I have to ask what's up with Dungeoneering? Humans have that on their skill list. Wait, humans are adventuring so much they all go on weekend dungeon crawls or something? Also, ignoring D&D for now, what the heck is it used for? Identifying secret doors, crossing over old rickety bridges, or every trap check and treasure search in an adventure? Maybe it's for designing and constructing dungeons, a dungeon engineer. It really seems that a sentence, possibly a short one, might clear that up.
Again, skills in D&D/D20 system are groups of specific actions. Skills in this are more akin to skills from Shadowrun than skills from D&D.

They are not specific actions rather they are general areas of knowledge and ability. The human may not go on dungeon crawls but humans are curious so he may have explored a cave or dungeon and has knowledge from that that he can apply to different aspects of his life.


It does seem that a number of skills in the samples list overlap a lot if not completely, but that's ok, as it's an 'Open' list, so expect some synonyms. So if some were to be clarified, the ones in the Races and Traditions are probably the ones most likely to receive that attention.
It could definitely use a couple examples, rather than just the one but honestly I think its more an issue of the clarity of wording than how much it explains them.

I agree that if you're moving from a system like D20/D&D to this kind of skill system, the name "skill" is confusing and takes some getting used to. There's not really a better word for it though.
 
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barasawa

Explorer
my unclear comments

Thanks for the reply SniperFox.
I've actually played a lot of games, especially ones that aren't in the class/level D&D mold.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of games have some rather messy arguments when something is vague.
(Let's not talk about Whitewolf and their utter worship at the altar of the ill defined.) Unfortunately, the skills happen to be one area where that can occur. For me, most of them are not a problem, but I can easily see some of those skills causing some conflict. In my opinion, if possible, it's usually best to resolve differences of opinions regarding this type of issue before they occur with a bit of definition.

I don't think an entire list of skills and their clarifications is appropriate as that might require an entire additional book. Just a bit on the ones that are bound to be up front in everyones possible choices, the ones listed for the races and traditions.

Sorry that my posting wasn't all that clear, or my lousy attempts at humor failed, but like I said, my writing skills aren't that good. I hope this at least clears up. If not, I doubt we have enough time for my writing skills to improve enough.

Again, thanks for comments.
 

Sniperfox47

Villager
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of games have some rathe some conflict. In my opinion, if possible, it's usually best to resolve differences of opinions regarding this type of issue before they occur with a bit of definition.
The issue I see with that is if you want to define all the possible cases any of these skills can be used in it would take an infinite number of cases. That's why I suggested having a couple examples that work and some that don't, as a guideline.

The way this system is written, in my opinion, may allow some discussion and "wiggle-room" on skills, but in my experience as a DM that's not a bad thing.

If you make close-ended skills like D&D, I've found that players feel locked in by the rules and don't try to explore alternate methods of using skills. On the other hand if you leave it open-ended like Shadowrun (and this), I've found that players own their skills a lot more and take considerations like "I know knitting... Can I use that in some way to help me make these vines into a roof for us tonight?".

That being said it will increase conflict, particularly with "rules-guru" players, but making sure that the game suits our particular group, including our guru, is my job, not Morrus'.
 

Atom Mlatom

Registered User
Noticed a confusing use of the word "Ambidexterity" in OLD...

Firstly, became familiar with this word as a Combat Trick.

But then.... a player took it as a Skill!

Of course, I went to correct him and explain the difference between Skills blah blah blah, but then he pointed it out to me right there in the Gladiator tradition stat block. Ambidexterity. A skill. Huh.

So ... here's what I did, I assumed that those traditions had some really nice buy ins, and I allowed players to take such skills as described in the Combat Tricks portion.

But to clarify, was that redundancy intended in the doc? The Tradition that lists it as a skill is specifically Gladiator, that I know of, but I didn't scour the doc to make sure it wasn't elsewhere or that there weren't similar issues.
 

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