WOIN O.L.D. v1.2 Playtest Version

Flips

Explorer
Page 66.
You can only benefit from high quality equipment (including armor) up to your skill level.

I thought that this was done away with, is it back? I liked the rule, so I am not sad to see it back.
 

Flips

Explorer
Page 82.
Longsword in the table is still listed as a Medium sized weapon despite its description and damage both indicating that it should be a 2-handed weapon and therefore Large.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Page 66.
You can only benefit from high quality equipment (including armor) up to your skill level.

I thought that this was done away with, is it back?
This is the only revision of the book there's ever been.
 

Flips

Explorer
This is the only revision of the book there's ever been.
Sorry, this may have been my misunderstanding with the errata to "Remove the reference to the minimum skill requirements for higher quality equipment, and the corresponding column in the table." and how that interacts with defenses.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Thanks everybody! That was super-helpful. I'm compiling this errata list and sending off to layout now.
 

RobJN

Explorer
Page 184, the Light. entry for creation: "Light. Light creates bright illumination in the spell’s area of effect, and dim light for a further distance equal to half the spell’s radius. For an additional 3 MP, the light can be made so bright that no shadows are cast, and any who see it are subject to a MAG vs. Defense check or becoming inflicted with the half-blind condition."

Should be "Blind" condition?
 

easl

Explorer
...Moreover, I would like to know what the rationale was in ditching skill prerequisites, as this greatly devalues investing in magic skills for most non-offensive purposes. To elaborate:
  • there is no gameplay benefit at all in taking points in the healing skill, since it never requires a roll;


  • AIUI, the new version will require a roll for all spells, at target number = 10 + magic points required to cast. So...that's why you want magical skills. This is the new method of preventing mages from being monsters out of the gate - you want to cast that spectacular 10 MP healing spell? You have to have a 10 Magic and hit a TN = 20.

    Question for Morrus: what skill lets you use the higher quality benefits of magical implements? Here's the two options I thought of:
    1. The magical skill being used (example: creation, evocation). Pro: this doesn't create any new skills. Con: it means that the same person may get a different equipment bonus from the exact same equipment, depending on whether they're casting (for example) a creation or evocation spell.

    2. A "magical implements" skill. Pro: easy for players to figure out what bonus they get from their equipment. Parallels weapon skills such as "swords" or "axes." Con: adds a skill...which none of the current careers have as a career skill.

    3. Something I haven't thought of?
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
AIUI, the new version will require a roll for all spells, at target number = 10 + magic points required to cast. So...that's why you want magical skills. This is the new method of preventing mages from being monsters out of the gate - you want to cast that spectacular 10 MP healing spell? You have to have a 10 Magic and hit a TN = 20.

Question for Morrus: what skill lets you use the higher quality benefits of magical implements? Here's the two options I thought of:
1. The magical skill being used (example: creation, evocation). Pro: this doesn't create any new skills. Con: it means that the same person may get a different equipment bonus from the exact same equipment, depending on whether they're casting (for example) a creation or evocation spell.

2. A "magical implements" skill. Pro: easy for players to figure out what bonus they get from their equipment. Con: adds a skill...which none of the current careers have as a career skill.

3. Something I haven't thought of?
Spellcraft.
 

easl

Explorer
Cool, thanks! So you use that to detect magic, identify magic, and use implements...sounds important... :)
 
AIUI, the new version will require a roll for all spells, at target number = 10 + magic points required to cast. So...that's why you want magical skills. This is the new method of preventing mages from being monsters out of the gate - you want to cast that spectacular 10 MP healing spell? You have to have a 10 Magic and hit a TN = 20.
Uh, can I get a page reference for that? Because as far as I can see, this line in the second paragraph in the Casting a Spell section
Spells take place automatically with no attribute check required unless they are targeting another creature [...] or unless they are performing an action for which an attribute check would normally be required (such as picking a lock).
wasn't changed, except for the part I omitted about what Defense to target. Same for later lines:
For example, a spell which simply creates a wall of stone across a passageway requires no attribute check. The magic-user simply deducts the cost of the spell from his current MP pool, and the spell is cast. [...]
Spells which directly affect other creatures always require a Magic attack roll, unless the creature is a willing recipient of the spell.
(emphasis mine)
 
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easl

Explorer
Uh, can I get a page reference for that?
I'm not sure it's in the V1.2 document yet. I'm referencing Morrus' post "A quick summary of OLD v1.2 Magic changes."

But, you bring up a good editing question/comment. Hey Morrus! Is the new mechanic in the document? Because it should be.
 

Old_Timer

Villager
Are spells still limited by the characters MAG score? The spell lkst in the earlier version required a massive score for most spells.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Are spells still limited by the characters MAG score? The spell lkst in the earlier version required a massive score for most spells.
Raise your gaze by approximately two inches. :)
 
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Old_Timer

Villager
ha, for some reason i thought that was just a snapshot not the shorthand of the rules. So a MAG of 11 is needed to cast that example spell but a 1d6 fire ball only requires a MAG of 7.
 
Many magical attack exploits do not specify whether you can add any skill to the attack roll.

  • The Battle Mage's Artillery exploit only mentions a "vital attack". Is that MAG-based? Can you add your evoke dice to the attack roll?
  • The Druid's Elemental Druid exploit only mentions a "ranged attack". Is that MAG- or DEX-based? Can you add any skill to that?
  • The Fire Mage's Firebolt exploit attack requires a "ranged attack (using your MAG attribute)". Can you add any skills to that?
  • The Ice Mage's Freezing Breath exploit gives you a cone-shaped "ranged MAG attack". Can you add evoke to that?
  • The description of the Illusionist's Illusory Attack does not mention whether it is MAG- or CHA-based or whatever, nor does it mention whether you can add any skills to that, nor what the range is supposed to be. Can you target anything in your line of sight? Is the range just 30'?
 
That's not an error. The global rule is that an attribute check (and an attack is one) includes a skill and equipment if appropriate.
I understand that, but it is unclear which skill is appropriate for such attacks, given that they are not explicitly created by a specific magic skill. A general rule somewhere, even just "when in doubt for magic attacks, allow evoke or throwing" would be useful.

Also, some do not indicate which Attribute should be used, and in Illusory Attack's case, even the range is not explicitly stated.
 

easl

Explorer
I understand that, but it is unclear which skill is appropriate for such attacks, given that they are not explicitly created by a specific magic skill. A general rule somewhere, even just "when in doubt for magic attacks, allow evoke or throwing" would be useful.
First, I hope that your suggestions for clarification make it into the final copy, because you're right, these things should be specified.

AIUI the skill system is supposed to be somewhat flexible. For example, you can use one of several different skills to defend against ranged and melee attacks. And one of the goals of v1.2 magic changes was to make the magical careers be able to function without the rules for creating spells (in case a group or GM doesn't want to bother with all that complication).

Given that understanding, my pure-opinion-with-nothnig-to-back-it-up would be: yes you can use throwing...and yes you can use evoke. For the illusory attack, illude would make sense, but in a group that doesn't use the full magic rules, another skill like bluffing might be used.

I doubt giving the spellcasters a couple of options of which to use is going to unbalance anything. The throwing skill is actually somewhat hard to advance, as very few careers have it (and AFAIK, no careers that give a MAG+1 have it), so letting a mage use that instead of evoke isn't really much of a benefit.

(Editorial aside: can we get some love for the Alchemists and give them the throwing skill? Morrus you gave them the ability to create magical grenades, but no skill they can use to accurately hit their target...)

Also, some do not indicate which Attribute should be used, and in Illusory Attack's case, even the range is not explicitly stated.
Again, I agree with you that you've spotted some areas where the beta rules need clarification.
 
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(Editorial aside: can we get some love for the Alchemists and give them the throwing skill? Morrus you gave them the ability to create magical grenades, but no skill they can use to accurately hit their target...)
I'm no authority on WOIN, but I've increasingly been coming to the opinion that the skill options offered by each career should be taken as strong suggestions, but not strict limits.

There are lots of careers that are missing skills that could be key to their function. Sometimes that's for skills that are very broadly useful (like Perception). But I think this is mostly due to the fact that the skills system isn't supposed to operate from a strictly defined list of valid skills. Skills in WOIN are supposed to be keywords, so you can make up a new one at any time, you just need to get your GM's permission.

Anyway, I think that can be generalized to allowing you to take existing skills in careers that don't explicitly offer them, as long as it makes sense to both you and your GM. My former naval crewman from NEW was working on a tactical console aiming guns for most of his Navy Tour career, so he should obviously have been able to learn the Gunnery skill from it (even though it's not on the skill list). Similarly, your bomb-making alchemist should be able to learn Throwing.
 

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